WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:10.000 She and we will be talking about solving the used problems with open source. 00:10.000 --> 00:15.000 I'm Claire Perchen, I'm EU advocacy leader at Mozilla Foundation. 00:15.000 --> 00:20.000 I'd also like to acknowledge Paula Gervingruyevska from Linux Foundation, who's co-organized 00:20.000 --> 00:21.000 this panel. 00:21.000 --> 00:26.000 I think she's maybe a womaning the door outside right now, but she's been encouraging 00:26.000 --> 00:32.000 to solve its problems with open source for many years now, and is the mastermind behind this session. 00:32.000 --> 00:37.000 So we will be talking, first I'll introduce the panelists, how about that? 00:37.000 --> 00:45.000 So we have Dr. Christopher Brewster, who is Senior Data Scientist at TNO in the Netherlands 00:45.000 --> 00:50.000 and Professor in the application of Emerging Technologies at Masterpiece University. 00:51.000 --> 00:57.000 He coordinates the Horizon EU Project Open Agree, which is building open source software and services 00:57.000 --> 01:01.000 in components for the agricultural sector as it digitizes. 01:01.000 --> 01:09.000 We also have Tobias Augsbunger, who is a climate tech innovator and open data and open source advocate 01:09.000 --> 01:12.000 with a PhD in atmospheric sciences. 01:12.000 --> 01:19.000 He is head of data at Open Energy Transition, which is standardizing electrical grid data. 01:19.000 --> 01:27.000 And he also contributes to OpenSustain.tech and climateread.com, which connect and promote open projects 01:27.000 --> 01:31.000 that combat climate change and biodiversity loss. 01:31.000 --> 01:37.000 And finally, we have Boris Dolly, who is Ospo director and lead for responsible digital strategy 01:37.000 --> 01:40.000 at the French Grid Operator RTE. 01:40.000 --> 01:46.000 His cross-domin expertise combines software engineering, open source leadership, 01:46.000 --> 01:49.000 procurement strategy, and additional sovereignty vision. 01:49.000 --> 01:54.000 And he killed created RTE software engineering department, where some 100 developers are so 01:54.000 --> 02:01.000 I believe, are working on open source grid critical tools along with the Linux Foundation energy. 02:01.000 --> 02:09.000 So with this excellent panel, we will be discussing how different experiences that all relate to open source. 02:09.000 --> 02:15.000 So across Europe, open source is increasingly used to address systemic challenges in a variety of sectors. 02:15.000 --> 02:19.000 We've just seen democracy, for instance, in the last session. 02:19.000 --> 02:24.000 And here we're going to be talking about agriculture and farming and the energy sector. 02:24.000 --> 02:32.000 However, the full potential of open source in these sectors depends on the adaptedness of projects, policies, and markets. 02:32.000 --> 02:37.000 So the idea here is to bring together these different concrete experiences from each of the panelists 02:37.000 --> 02:43.000 and to see how open source can enable innovation, transparency and autonomy, and different spaces. 02:43.000 --> 02:49.000 And we'll see how various policy choices from funding, procurement, data governance, standards, licensing. 02:49.000 --> 02:55.000 How these can ensure that open source software provides the basis for sustainable and resilient ecosystems 02:55.000 --> 03:00.000 that Europe needs to address different environmental, social and economic challenges. 03:00.000 --> 03:04.000 So with that, I'm first going to turn to Tobias. 03:04.000 --> 03:07.000 Can you set the frame for us here? 03:07.000 --> 03:12.000 Because you've had various experiences, including open energy transition, and more widely. 03:12.000 --> 03:25.000 So can you tell us what is it about open source, open science, open data that make these methods particularly suited to climate and energy challenges? 03:25.000 --> 03:27.000 Yeah, thank you so much. 03:27.000 --> 03:35.000 So if we talk about climate and sustainability or environmental general, we're talking about something that can be measured. 03:35.000 --> 03:37.000 You know, everyone can see it. 03:37.000 --> 03:41.000 You can really see what is true of faults, right? 03:41.000 --> 03:46.000 You can see if there is a thunderstorm coming, for example. 03:46.000 --> 03:49.000 You can measure the wind speed and all this data is actually available. 03:49.000 --> 03:55.000 And we can make quite good assumptions about the future using open source software. 03:55.000 --> 04:04.000 We can model the future in a certain way, or how different directions, how different policies can change the future. 04:04.000 --> 04:08.000 And this is done with open source, quite a lot in the energy space. 04:08.000 --> 04:12.000 So to plan where to invest is high to part of future. 04:12.000 --> 04:18.000 Is it battery storage, or is it solar power, or should we just wait until fusion is ready? 04:18.000 --> 04:28.000 So on all this planning, on all this, what we consider sustainable, or not, we can do calculations. 04:28.000 --> 04:31.000 And with open source, we can just open them up. 04:31.000 --> 04:35.000 We can open up the energy assumption, any data that we use. 04:35.000 --> 04:43.000 And this makes actually open source and open science the key indicator for sustainable sustainability in general. 04:43.000 --> 04:47.000 Because you can really prove with data with software. 04:47.000 --> 04:54.000 If some future investment actually is could be considered sustainable or not. 04:54.000 --> 04:57.000 For example, we give you climate change. 04:57.000 --> 05:00.000 There are a lot of people saying there is no climate change. 05:00.000 --> 05:10.000 But if you can prove that there is no climate change, you can create an open source model using open data and just prove there is no climate change. 05:10.000 --> 05:16.000 And climate change is not, let's say, for a really a problem for a society, you can model that. 05:16.000 --> 05:23.000 But there are no open source and open data models out there that this prove climate change. 05:23.000 --> 05:26.000 And that's why climate change is there. 05:26.000 --> 05:30.000 Because you cannot disprove it with open science and open source as an example. 05:30.000 --> 05:39.000 And the same goes with investment in energy, because energy is the most important leverage or let's say way to tackle climate change. 05:39.000 --> 05:45.000 Because most of the CO2 comes from energy from the energy sector. 05:45.000 --> 05:48.000 Great. Next, I'm going to turn to Christopher. 05:48.000 --> 05:52.000 You've actually sat in exactly the order that I was hoping to have this. 05:52.000 --> 05:56.000 Christopher, now we want to talk really specifically about the agricultural sector. 05:56.000 --> 06:01.000 Agriculture is an extremely important area of EU policy, of course. 06:01.000 --> 06:05.000 But not one that we often talk about in relation to open source. 06:05.000 --> 06:10.000 So can you tell us a little bit about the motivation for the open-agre project? 06:10.000 --> 06:13.000 And also from your perspective how the project is going. 06:13.000 --> 06:16.000 I think it's year two or year three already now. 06:16.000 --> 06:21.000 We're in the final year of the project we end in December of this year. 06:21.000 --> 06:29.000 So open-agre is a European Union-funded project running for three years, we're in the last year. 06:29.000 --> 06:32.000 And it has two core activities. 06:32.000 --> 06:39.000 One is the development of a collection of open source software services, which we already have available. 06:39.000 --> 06:45.000 And the other is to analyze how Wendy's services are used. 06:45.000 --> 06:57.000 What the energy performance is, particularly with the target audience being small, medium technology providers, 06:57.000 --> 07:00.000 having smallholder farmers across Europe. 07:00.000 --> 07:04.000 So very often a lot of agriculture is in remote locations. 07:04.000 --> 07:11.000 It needs to be cannot guarantee a dependence on broadband services or connection to the internet. 07:11.000 --> 07:19.000 So all our services are designed to function both with a broadband connection or without independently. 07:19.000 --> 07:23.000 The challenge for the agriculture sector is enormous. 07:23.000 --> 07:28.000 The challenge Boris about energy, I think agriculture is the big problem for climate. 07:28.000 --> 07:35.000 Agriculture is responsible for agriculture and food is responsible for more than one third of greenhouse gas emissions. 07:35.000 --> 07:43.000 78% of water extracted is due to agriculture. 07:43.000 --> 07:50.000 And in Europe, like in most parts of the world, most farmers are small scale. 07:50.000 --> 07:54.000 There's obviously a power curve here with a small number of very large scale farmers. 07:54.000 --> 08:01.000 But 70% of farmers in Europe are under 20 hectares, 50% are under five hectares in size. 08:01.000 --> 08:03.000 So this is our target audience. 08:03.000 --> 08:11.000 Small farmers who have very small profit margins to the extent that it's needed to use digitization in this area. 08:11.000 --> 08:13.000 That's what the project is targeting. 08:13.000 --> 08:18.000 There's a strong push from the European Union to introduce more digital technologies. 08:18.000 --> 08:22.000 There's great passion from a lot of technology providers. 08:22.000 --> 08:27.000 I think this considerable resistance from the agricultural sector. 08:27.000 --> 08:28.000 Thank you. 08:28.000 --> 08:30.000 Let's look at start for this topic. 08:30.000 --> 08:32.000 We'll come back to it. 08:32.000 --> 08:35.000 Boris, now diving again into the energy sector. 08:35.000 --> 08:38.000 The energy transition is in full swing. 08:38.000 --> 08:40.000 The grid is digitizing and virtualizing. 08:40.000 --> 08:46.000 But is there something specific about decentralized community driven nature of renewable energy? 08:46.000 --> 08:48.000 That links us back to open source. 08:48.000 --> 08:51.000 Can you share with us your personal journey, your collective journey, 08:51.000 --> 08:54.000 with open source in the energy domain? 08:54.000 --> 08:56.000 Thank you. 08:58.000 --> 09:00.000 I think she was read. 09:00.000 --> 09:02.000 We're going to tell her that. 09:02.000 --> 09:03.000 Hello. 09:03.000 --> 09:04.000 I want to. 09:04.000 --> 09:05.000 Hey. 09:05.000 --> 09:06.000 Nice. 09:06.000 --> 09:07.000 Thank you so much. 09:07.000 --> 09:08.000 Yes. 09:08.000 --> 09:12.000 The energy transition and the climate change and the agriculture are, 09:12.000 --> 09:16.000 I think, something we need to take care of for people in planet prosperity. 09:16.000 --> 09:18.000 So we're on a huge topic. 09:18.000 --> 09:23.000 And what we've done in order to face the challenge, 09:23.000 --> 09:27.000 when I say we, as I say RTE, the French transmission, great. 09:27.000 --> 09:32.000 We saw that the waterfall system with nuclear production, 09:32.000 --> 09:37.000 and how we say it. 09:37.000 --> 09:39.000 Sorry, I don't have the word in English. 09:39.000 --> 09:44.000 But the behavior of the citizen and the industries was perfectly known 09:44.000 --> 09:49.000 from the end of the World War II to the 21st century. 09:49.000 --> 09:52.000 But in the 21st century, something changed. 09:52.000 --> 09:57.000 The behavior of everyone in this, what we call the power system, 09:57.000 --> 09:59.000 will completely change. 09:59.000 --> 10:03.000 We are a grid operator where you are a solar panel, a product, 10:03.000 --> 10:07.000 whatever your role, gas, electricity, water. 10:07.000 --> 10:10.000 We are all facing this energy transition. 10:10.000 --> 10:12.000 So what is a point? 10:12.000 --> 10:18.000 We will never be able to make this power system so agile 10:18.000 --> 10:22.000 because now it's a software-defined power system. 10:22.000 --> 10:25.000 It's not more a human one because we need to automate 10:25.000 --> 10:29.000 and react very quickly because we can have blackout. 10:29.000 --> 10:32.000 And it has been demonstrated recently in Europe. 10:32.000 --> 10:35.000 So we can have blackout if we are not so agile at the production 10:35.000 --> 10:38.000 is changing everywhere on the conceptions of engineering. 10:38.000 --> 10:41.000 So what we've done, we've done something that the open source 10:41.000 --> 10:43.000 is very good to do. 10:43.000 --> 10:47.000 We copy paste and we do the same as other. 10:47.000 --> 10:49.000 And not reinventing the wheel. 10:49.000 --> 10:53.000 We saw what happened in the telecommunications center. 10:53.000 --> 10:56.000 Sorry, in the telecommunications sector. 10:56.000 --> 10:59.000 And we saw that they've built an ecosystem for open source. 10:59.000 --> 11:02.000 In order to address together, 11:02.000 --> 11:04.000 the same challenge that they all have. 11:04.000 --> 11:08.000 And spending money one after one in the same needs is wasting money 11:08.000 --> 11:13.000 and not being able to face the transition that is in front of us. 11:13.000 --> 11:17.000 So we've created this Linux relation energy project. 11:17.000 --> 11:22.000 In order to have three main topic, we will build together. 11:22.000 --> 11:24.000 First, of course, the algorithm. 11:24.000 --> 11:26.000 We need forecast for the weather. 11:26.000 --> 11:29.000 And it's interesting because it's interesting for climate change. 11:29.000 --> 11:31.000 It's interesting for agriculture. 11:31.000 --> 11:34.000 So you will see what is this common thing is more than energy. 11:34.000 --> 11:37.000 But in energy, we need, of course, algorithm. 11:37.000 --> 11:39.000 We need also that as. 11:39.000 --> 11:42.000 And with AI, it can mix to the two. 11:42.000 --> 11:44.000 And we need open standards. 11:45.000 --> 11:50.000 And the standard organization are not so quick for building digital standards. 11:50.000 --> 11:52.000 They are improving and it's a good thing. 11:52.000 --> 11:54.000 And open source is really helping them for that. 11:54.000 --> 11:58.000 So we created this ecosystem to give you an insight. 11:58.000 --> 12:04.000 In 2019, at the yearally, the first yearally symposium, we were nine. 12:04.000 --> 12:07.000 And next year, we will be 700. 12:07.000 --> 12:10.000 So we copy-based telecommunication. 12:10.000 --> 12:13.000 We copy-based the vehicle and we did that in the energy. 12:13.000 --> 12:16.000 Great. 12:16.000 --> 12:21.000 So to sum up a little bit that first round, I'll try with this microphone to speak loudly. 12:21.000 --> 12:25.000 We're seeing not just different sectors, energy, agriculture, climate. 12:25.000 --> 12:30.000 But we're also seeing different attributes of open source that make open source, 12:30.000 --> 12:33.000 particularly the lend itself well to addressing these challenges, right? 12:33.000 --> 12:37.000 Copy-paste, ecosystem effect, decentralization, ground truth, 12:38.000 --> 12:40.000 verifiability. 12:40.000 --> 12:45.000 So for this next round of questions, I want to draw on your experiences and think about what 12:45.000 --> 12:47.000 you policy should be doing now. 12:47.000 --> 12:51.000 We are in the policy bedroom in case anyone was not aware. 12:51.000 --> 12:55.000 So we've already seen the benefits of European legislation initiatives. 12:55.000 --> 12:58.000 I think you've experienced those benefits firsthand. 12:58.000 --> 13:02.000 So now, let's think about the difference between policy, perhaps, in theory, 13:02.000 --> 13:05.000 and then how it works in the field, in industries and in communities. 13:05.000 --> 13:10.000 And think about how can future policies overcome the next obstacles that you're facing, 13:10.000 --> 13:15.000 and continue to safeguard the role of open source in these sectors? 13:15.000 --> 13:22.000 Christopher, you mentioned, actually, I think when we spoke earlier a bit about problems 13:22.000 --> 13:27.000 related to lock-in, related to entry, especially for everything about small, 13:27.000 --> 13:30.000 older farmers, right? We're in remote locations. 13:31.000 --> 13:35.000 How is so far the open-agre and the agricultural data space? 13:35.000 --> 13:38.000 How are they helping to address these issues in your perspective? 13:38.000 --> 13:43.000 And what kind of updates might you need from policy in the future? 13:43.000 --> 13:46.000 It's complicated. 13:46.000 --> 13:52.000 There are many laws, of course, to this, but if one of the issues is that we're having a situation 13:52.000 --> 13:57.000 which, as I mentioned before, there is a top-down push for greater digital adoption, 13:57.000 --> 14:00.000 as a general resistance from the agricultural sector. 14:00.000 --> 14:03.000 Larger because it doesn't make financial sense. 14:03.000 --> 14:09.000 So that's one simple aspect is actually looking at what's really happening on the farm, 14:09.000 --> 14:11.000 and really looking at the profits. 14:11.000 --> 14:17.000 You can't really persuade people to invest in new tools if they can't afford to buy them. 14:17.000 --> 14:21.000 Beyond that, there are lots of other laws to do with standardisation. 14:21.000 --> 14:24.000 There have been efforts in the European Union to standardise. 14:24.000 --> 14:27.000 In talking particularly there about interoperability. 14:27.000 --> 14:33.000 Currently, you have big agricultural machinery providers, each of which have their own websites, 14:33.000 --> 14:37.000 with their own access, the farmer can access their data on their, 14:37.000 --> 14:40.000 I'm speaking to some French farmers a few weeks ago. 14:40.000 --> 14:42.000 They were saying, well, we have to subscribe to John Deere, 14:42.000 --> 14:45.000 we have to strike threats as a panel and we have to support. 14:45.000 --> 14:46.000 And it's all different. 14:46.000 --> 14:52.000 So that kind of thing is an obvious area where there should be a strong push. 14:52.000 --> 14:57.000 Obviously, a very strong pushback from the manufacturers and from the big companies against this, 14:57.000 --> 15:00.000 because that is a fundamental principle of locking. 15:00.000 --> 15:05.000 You get your target audience, some of the technology, 15:05.000 --> 15:09.000 and then it's easier for them just to carry on being part of that ecosystem. 15:09.000 --> 15:15.000 So there is a really an area where the European Union at a policy level can really make a difference. 15:16.000 --> 15:26.000 Ensure that there is a guarantee to be able to walk away from any particular technology stack and go to another one. 15:26.000 --> 15:29.000 Beyond that, there are issues around funding. 15:29.000 --> 15:32.000 I talked about need to subsidise agriculture as a whole, 15:32.000 --> 15:37.000 but there's a need to understand more carefully the funding that is poured into the sectors. 15:37.000 --> 15:40.000 Lots of money around, but it's very bitter. 15:40.000 --> 15:43.000 It's very a bit here a bit there and that's the thing. 15:43.000 --> 15:47.000 So if the European Union has a serious policy in this area, 15:47.000 --> 15:52.000 that needs more coherence into the way that is organised. 15:52.000 --> 15:54.000 I'll stop now. 15:54.000 --> 15:56.000 Okay, I'm the topic of funding. 15:56.000 --> 15:58.000 Actually, a Boris, I might turn to you next. 15:58.000 --> 16:03.000 You have experience with procurement and funding and different market models. 16:03.000 --> 16:05.000 So does anything that Christopher say resonate with you, 16:05.000 --> 16:11.000 what have been your experiences and what would be your policy recommendations related to procurement and funding? 16:12.000 --> 16:14.000 Yeah, thank you for this very important question. 16:14.000 --> 16:18.000 And here I took a note because a little bit exhausted by this open source week. 16:18.000 --> 16:26.000 So yes, public procurement is something that we spend 2,000 billion euro a year 16:26.000 --> 16:29.000 at the European Union level each year. 16:29.000 --> 16:33.000 200 billion are dedicated to digital. 16:34.000 --> 16:41.000 And we have a first key that we need to know. 16:41.000 --> 16:46.000 The first one is when you are a public procurement, like me, a public buyer, like me, 16:46.000 --> 16:48.000 you will either buy or make. 16:48.000 --> 16:52.000 But if you buy the care here, we are not in the real estate. 16:52.000 --> 16:58.000 If you buy out of the shelf a digital asset, it's not your digital asset. 16:58.000 --> 17:02.000 So you will pay fees and you will rent not buy. 17:03.000 --> 17:08.000 And the first key is to now stop buying private digital assets, 17:08.000 --> 17:13.000 but beginning to buy public assets, digital public goods, 17:13.000 --> 17:18.000 public source for all the world, but there is a bet. 17:18.000 --> 17:28.000 When you do that, you face the immunity totem of your CEO, your CTO, your CFO, and your CEO. 17:28.000 --> 17:34.000 What is this immunity totem? Remember July, 2024, Crowd Strike, 17:34.000 --> 17:37.000 Blue Screen of this, everywhere on the world. 17:37.000 --> 17:39.000 No one was fired for that. 17:39.000 --> 17:42.000 This is the immunity totem I'm speaking about. 17:42.000 --> 17:47.000 When you go to open source through the public procurement, you put your CEO at risk. 17:47.000 --> 17:50.000 So he needs SLA. 17:50.000 --> 17:55.000 And this word has not been said, it's service level agreement. 17:55.000 --> 17:59.000 There is four level classical in SLA, one, two, three, four. 17:59.000 --> 18:07.000 One, two is the running daily life and three expertise and four excellence. 18:07.000 --> 18:14.000 So what we need is to produce European champions to offer this SLA 18:14.000 --> 18:20.000 for the entire industry's administrations that are public procurement, 18:20.000 --> 18:22.000 but also private procurement. 18:22.000 --> 18:25.000 But for that, how we do that? It's easy. 18:25.000 --> 18:28.000 We have already European open source catalog. 18:28.000 --> 18:34.000 It's available online in the Interpowerable Framework of European Commission. 18:34.000 --> 18:38.000 And what we should do is improve this for why. 18:38.000 --> 18:42.000 Doing a matrix with IT for IT staff. 18:42.000 --> 18:46.000 Here's the generic IT of his replacing this. 18:46.000 --> 18:48.000 We have all we need. 18:48.000 --> 18:53.000 And then drawing verticals, electric reads, electric generation, gas, 18:53.000 --> 18:56.000 train, agriculture, every vertical. 18:56.000 --> 18:59.000 And there is small horizontal layers between them. 18:59.000 --> 19:05.000 For example, you have a linear infrastructure, train rail road. 19:05.000 --> 19:09.000 You have an electrical, you need to modelize the vegetation. 19:09.000 --> 19:11.000 So we have open sources to that. 19:11.000 --> 19:13.000 It's not in the European portal now. 19:13.000 --> 19:18.000 So we need to make this map of what exists in open source. 19:18.000 --> 19:21.000 I'm not speaking only about product. 19:21.000 --> 19:25.000 I'm mostly speaking about the offer. 19:25.000 --> 19:31.000 But the offer will never happen if we don't have the same northern star. 19:31.000 --> 19:33.000 And not the northern star. 19:33.000 --> 19:34.000 The northern star is open source. 19:34.000 --> 19:37.000 The open source week has demonstrated that's done. 19:37.000 --> 19:39.000 For Europe, we have the northern stars. 19:39.000 --> 19:42.000 For sovereignty purpose, it will be open source. 19:42.000 --> 19:45.000 But we need a compass. 19:45.000 --> 19:47.000 We are not in this space world. 19:47.000 --> 19:49.000 Walking here, what is the compass? 19:49.000 --> 19:50.000 The compass is this matrix. 19:50.000 --> 19:54.000 Where you put the maturity level of the product of the community. 19:54.000 --> 19:56.000 And in the community, there is two things. 19:56.000 --> 19:58.000 Production grade ready. 19:58.000 --> 20:02.000 For example, we have open source in production for very critical missions. 20:02.000 --> 20:05.000 So we need to make a pin everywhere in Europe. 20:05.000 --> 20:08.000 And this ecosystem, software defined vehicle, elephant energy. 20:08.000 --> 20:14.000 And in agriculture, you have ecosystems where we know the product and the grade level. 20:14.000 --> 20:18.000 But there is the other level, which is ready not for production only. 20:18.000 --> 20:21.000 But also commercial grade level ready. 20:21.000 --> 20:23.000 So we have an ecosystem. 20:23.000 --> 20:25.000 And I will take an example and guess what? 20:25.000 --> 20:28.000 It's not a promotion because it's open source. 20:28.000 --> 20:31.000 It's matrix.org. 20:32.000 --> 20:35.000 Ask in your procurement because you are allowed by the low. 20:35.000 --> 20:38.000 No need for the policy to change any comma in the low. 20:38.000 --> 20:42.000 You are allowed to say I want metrics.org solution. 20:42.000 --> 20:46.000 But you are not allowed to say elements because it's a private company on top, 20:46.000 --> 20:54.000 which is a part of the entire ecosystem where you have what the European has been built for as healthy concurrency. 20:54.000 --> 21:00.000 So we need these champions to be identified in this matrix with the product. 21:00.000 --> 21:08.000 And then the compass will be for every public procurement to have this incentive to stop thinking about the short term optimization. 21:08.000 --> 21:12.000 Would you eat junk food every day because it's cheap? 21:12.000 --> 21:16.000 Or will you eat organic food because you consider your entire life? 21:16.000 --> 21:21.000 It's the same for the digital assets that we pay for through public and private procurement. 21:21.000 --> 21:26.000 So remember 200 billion per year for digital for public procurement. 21:26.000 --> 21:29.000 The private sees a amount of money that we can make. 21:29.000 --> 21:33.000 If we broke the vicious circle of spending money to digital assets everywhere on earth, 21:33.000 --> 21:35.000 but not digital public goods. 21:35.000 --> 21:36.000 Let's start. 21:36.000 --> 21:39.000 This is prosperity for people in planet. 21:39.000 --> 21:41.000 Thank you. 21:41.000 --> 21:44.000 And buying not venting got really big nods from the other. 21:44.000 --> 21:46.000 I don't know if you want to respond to some of that before. 21:46.000 --> 21:49.000 I also have a question for Tobias. 21:49.000 --> 21:55.000 It's different for the energy sector because you have said, 21:55.000 --> 22:02.000 if you use about guaranteeing a certain level of delivery of energy continuously. 22:02.000 --> 22:07.000 But there's a flip story here, which is that we're trying to create a dependency in agriculture. 22:07.000 --> 22:09.000 We're trying to impose upon agriculture. 22:09.000 --> 22:16.000 You should depend upon these digital services, which then will have to be guaranteed by the energy sector in terms of data centers and 22:16.000 --> 22:17.000 God knows what. 22:17.000 --> 22:23.000 So we are artificially creating a dependency there, which is challenging and problematic. 22:23.000 --> 22:25.000 And do we really want that? 22:25.000 --> 22:27.000 It's an open issue. 22:27.000 --> 22:31.000 So the question is slightly different in the agriculture sector. 22:31.000 --> 22:33.000 That on the farm level. 22:33.000 --> 22:36.000 But a lot of the analytical side and all that's a thing. 22:36.000 --> 22:37.000 Yes, definitely. 22:37.000 --> 22:40.000 There's a lot of echoes now. 22:40.000 --> 22:44.000 And Tobias, I actually wanted to ask you a slightly different question, 22:44.000 --> 22:46.000 although you're welcome to respond to anything. 22:46.000 --> 22:51.000 So I think you'll have perspective on policy making, but from a different angle, 22:51.000 --> 22:56.000 which is actually how open source, open science can improve public spending and decision making. 22:56.000 --> 22:59.000 But do you talk a little bit about this? 22:59.000 --> 23:00.000 Yes. 23:00.000 --> 23:06.000 For example, let's say open-range and decision company and working for their doing energy system planning. 23:06.000 --> 23:14.000 So we just really create software to do what's the investment you have to do for the next 10 years in different technologies in your grid, 23:14.000 --> 23:16.000 in the power plants. 23:16.000 --> 23:19.000 And this is used by policymakers. 23:19.000 --> 23:22.000 Some policymakers really love open source now. 23:22.000 --> 23:30.000 And to use open data, open source to add this to their reports, to their documents, why this needs to be done. 23:30.000 --> 23:41.000 But it feels like that there's a problem in policy making general that those people who speak with openness or with open science don't really get the spotlight. 23:41.000 --> 23:45.000 And what we really need to do is do exactly this. 23:45.000 --> 23:51.000 And for example, in Germany, we try not to invest as new governments and they all want to invest now into gas power plants, 23:51.000 --> 23:55.000 but really it makes no sense from a security environmental or any perspective. 23:55.000 --> 24:01.000 But they still do it and then they give you a paper and they say here's why. 24:01.000 --> 24:03.000 It's not enough. 24:03.000 --> 24:05.000 I would just say go home. 24:05.000 --> 24:06.000 Leave the room. 24:06.000 --> 24:07.000 I want to see your data. 24:07.000 --> 24:08.000 It's about a future. 24:08.000 --> 24:09.000 Show me your data. 24:09.000 --> 24:11.000 Show you model what your assumptions. 24:11.000 --> 24:16.000 Why do you think this is why why you don't speak about better storage at all in your reports. 24:16.000 --> 24:17.000 Right? 24:17.000 --> 24:18.000 It doesn't make sense at all. 24:18.000 --> 24:19.000 And that's needs to be changed. 24:19.000 --> 24:23.000 So those people who really speak, you're not transparent. 24:23.000 --> 24:27.000 Transparent is a little bit difficult because you could transparent this. 24:27.000 --> 24:29.000 Everything can be transparent. 24:29.000 --> 24:33.000 You know, actually glass glass that is part of the light passing through glass. 24:33.000 --> 24:34.000 That's transparency. 24:34.000 --> 24:37.000 What you want is traceability. 24:37.000 --> 24:38.000 That's something different. 24:38.000 --> 24:42.000 It's a little bit stronger and also an illegal framework much stronger. 24:42.000 --> 24:44.000 You just need an indicator. 24:44.000 --> 24:48.000 How traceable is what this politician is saying there? 24:48.000 --> 24:51.000 What is he saying? 24:51.000 --> 24:53.000 Do you have a model that you can show me? 24:53.000 --> 24:55.000 Do you have any data? 24:55.000 --> 24:58.000 And if not then you get just less trust. 24:58.000 --> 25:02.000 And this should be implemented into policies from my point of view. 25:02.000 --> 25:04.000 That's it. 25:04.000 --> 25:06.000 So there should be trust. 25:06.000 --> 25:12.000 So the trust that is created by openness should be somehow implemented into policy 25:12.000 --> 25:17.000 Making or at least how it is communicated to the public. 25:17.000 --> 25:20.000 And this would significantly change a lot of things in our society. 25:20.000 --> 25:26.000 If suddenly we would allow open science to have the spotlight in policy making. 25:26.000 --> 25:36.000 Because then we would get rid of all those very bad political, influential people that try to 25:36.000 --> 25:41.000 Just lie because it's more or less just lying that you try to avoid with that. 25:41.000 --> 25:47.000 And that decision making is manipulated by some other bad actors. 25:47.000 --> 25:49.000 And it can be done. 25:49.000 --> 25:52.000 So most people don't understand that you can model a lot. 25:52.000 --> 25:54.000 You can calculate a lot. 25:54.000 --> 25:56.000 And there's a huge ecosystem. 25:56.000 --> 26:03.000 We have 200, or 200, or 200 open source projects for energy system modeling. 26:03.000 --> 26:05.000 They do exactly this. 26:05.000 --> 26:08.000 There is already massive ecosystem. 26:08.000 --> 26:10.000 You just have to use it. 26:10.000 --> 26:11.000 And you need to away. 26:11.000 --> 26:13.000 And that's some kind of challenge. 26:13.000 --> 26:19.000 How do we get open source into the into let's say our public services. 26:19.000 --> 26:22.000 Right into our industry. 26:22.000 --> 26:26.000 And there is a gap of services that we still need to fill. 26:26.000 --> 26:32.000 But if we can fill this gap and tell people trust open science. 26:32.000 --> 26:35.000 Because it's very hard to manipulate it. 26:35.000 --> 26:36.000 That's really the point. 26:36.000 --> 26:38.000 We can change a lot. 26:38.000 --> 26:41.000 Yes, I hope. 26:41.000 --> 26:42.000 Great. 26:42.000 --> 26:49.000 We have a few more minutes. 26:49.000 --> 26:52.000 Actually, Boris, you were nodding about traceability. 26:52.000 --> 26:55.000 I don't know if there's something you want to add there. 26:55.000 --> 26:56.000 No. 26:56.000 --> 26:57.000 Great. 26:57.000 --> 27:01.000 We've got five minutes for questions that are not case. 27:01.000 --> 27:04.000 Take your time to think of your questions. 27:04.000 --> 27:05.000 Yeah. 27:05.000 --> 27:06.000 In the back. 27:06.000 --> 27:07.000 We'll repeat. 27:07.000 --> 27:08.000 Yeah. 27:08.000 --> 27:29.000 Thank you. 27:29.000 --> 27:37.000 The manufacturers of large machinery tractors and combined harvesters and the plow shares. 27:37.000 --> 27:44.000 The jump deers of the world. 27:44.000 --> 27:48.000 I want to know your opinion. 27:48.000 --> 27:52.000 If it's already dead from the start, just focusing on software. 27:52.000 --> 28:01.000 And that is about time to actually develop also the open source hardware for these vehicles. 28:01.000 --> 28:02.000 Why? 28:02.000 --> 28:12.000 These big, big ad companies will just read the rewards of the open source data and the open source software and the open source things that we tend to provide. 28:12.000 --> 28:13.000 What's your opinion on it? 28:13.000 --> 28:16.000 I agree entirely. 28:16.000 --> 28:21.000 And I think there's a fundamental problem with digitization. 28:21.000 --> 28:30.000 I was just saying to an earlier conversation, which is that as soon as you digitize any sector, you are tending towards consolidation. 28:30.000 --> 28:33.000 So we have a history all the way going back to. 28:33.000 --> 28:44.000 There's a wonderful book by Tim Wu on this called the Master Switch going back to telegraphy, telegraphy telephony, radio, television, cable television, all the way to internet. 28:44.000 --> 28:49.000 Give it 20 years and it always consolidates to two, three, four companies. 28:49.000 --> 28:54.000 And I am very afraid that the agricultural sector in 20 years time will be four companies. 28:54.000 --> 28:56.000 Four global companies. 28:56.000 --> 29:00.000 If you look at what's happened in other sectors, such as inputs. 29:00.000 --> 29:05.000 So fertilizer production, pesticide production, seed production. 29:05.000 --> 29:11.000 It's all got consolidated to four or five companies at a global level. 29:11.000 --> 29:23.000 So the question there really and I throw this back to the audience is, how can we force open source to act as a barrier as a shield? 29:23.000 --> 29:26.000 To that inevitable consolidation. 29:26.000 --> 29:33.000 That's for me a core question because I can create open source software. 29:33.000 --> 29:42.000 I can encourage startups all over Europe to use that and create customized solutions for their small ecosystem of farmers. 29:42.000 --> 29:47.000 But how do I prevent the big player from coming along and swallowing them up one by one? 29:47.000 --> 29:51.000 So I mean we've worked in previous projects with the company in Italy. 29:51.000 --> 29:56.000 It's a little hotter, very interesting farm management system they were bought by BASF. 29:56.000 --> 30:00.000 Why does BASF buy in a digital agriculture company? 30:00.000 --> 30:02.000 Let's think about that. 30:02.000 --> 30:06.000 And that's just going to be replicated across the board. 30:06.000 --> 30:14.000 And this is not to contradict the fact that there are a lot of pushes that enable open source solutions. 30:14.000 --> 30:26.000 If you look at regulation like the EUDR regulation on deforestation has created a whole collection of tools and startups trying to answer that both within Europe and internationally. 30:26.000 --> 30:28.000 And not some other such scale. 30:28.000 --> 30:30.000 Then they create these ecosystems. 30:30.000 --> 30:35.000 But then give them 10 years, give them 20 years, they disappear. 30:35.000 --> 30:40.000 So I'm pessimistic but I would like to have hope. 30:41.000 --> 30:44.000 Check, check. 30:44.000 --> 30:46.000 Any other question? 30:46.000 --> 30:48.000 Yeah. 30:48.000 --> 30:50.000 Is it working? 30:50.000 --> 30:51.000 Okay. 30:51.000 --> 30:52.000 All right. 30:52.000 --> 30:55.000 So one question to Boris. 30:55.000 --> 30:59.000 You mentioned, we have wonderful open source projects. 30:59.000 --> 31:02.000 There has spread in many parts around the world. 31:02.000 --> 31:06.000 There's a need to sustain open source projects and so on. 31:07.000 --> 31:26.000 But then there's a gap in creating European or local service champions all around the world to actually get open source implemented in like big slow moving institutions. 31:26.000 --> 31:31.000 What's your idea on how we can create those champions? 31:32.000 --> 31:35.000 First, we need there already exists. 31:35.000 --> 31:37.000 There are small. 31:37.000 --> 31:40.000 The question is how they can go at scale. 31:40.000 --> 31:42.000 Then there is another point. 31:42.000 --> 31:55.000 I think that we can maybe try to change the mindset the culture and the incentives of the stakeholders of private company companies like service providers. 31:55.000 --> 31:58.000 We have in Europe very great service providers. 31:58.000 --> 32:06.000 So guys, we'll be mainly capable of doing the level one and level two for your open source project. 32:06.000 --> 32:13.000 There will be keen to do that because there are also keen to do integration of private bricks that they have partnership with. 32:13.000 --> 32:15.000 They're interested in very early money. 32:15.000 --> 32:24.000 They're also keen to make something for you, but you alone, not a digital, but good because you will as a client do this cycle, this vicious cycle. 32:24.000 --> 32:27.000 For 25 years now we are doing that. 32:27.000 --> 32:34.000 You invest, you go in prediction, for maintenance cost, and then you didn't document anything. 32:34.000 --> 32:36.000 And those guys will not document for yourself. 32:36.000 --> 32:38.000 No wonder you meant what you built. 32:38.000 --> 32:41.000 It's too hard to think it's a consensus. 32:41.000 --> 32:47.000 And then what will happen when you will need to have this evolution, you will drop down. 32:47.000 --> 32:49.000 So it will be a loss of cost. 32:49.000 --> 32:51.000 The champions we need. 32:51.000 --> 32:55.000 We need to insightize them to say stop working for me. 32:55.000 --> 33:07.000 Begins to begin a champion for the four layer of, so you can have some of investment, which is never ending digital asset capitalization. 33:07.000 --> 33:15.000 Those guys, we need to incentivize them, change our culture, or there is a third option for answering a question, 33:15.000 --> 33:18.000 is to find a new unicorn on that. 33:18.000 --> 33:22.000 We have very great developer all around Europe. 33:22.000 --> 33:25.000 And what we need is give them the funding. 33:25.000 --> 33:29.000 We spent eight hundred, it has been set by during the open source weight. 33:29.000 --> 33:31.000 We spent a Europe commission. 33:31.000 --> 33:33.000 Funded open source. 33:33.000 --> 33:38.000 About 800 millions euro in the last seven years. 33:38.000 --> 33:41.000 Those should go to those guys. 33:41.000 --> 33:42.000 This is my answer. 33:42.000 --> 33:45.000 And then if we identify who they are, what they have succeeded in, 33:45.000 --> 33:52.000 and we can have this service development to give to our COC IOs, it will go up. 33:57.000 --> 34:03.000 I think we are going to have to close it there, but thank you so much to the speakers.