WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:12.000 You taught last year, we haven't seen the taught last year, go watch it on the Yaka tomorrow. 00:12.000 --> 00:14.000 Thank you for being here. 00:14.000 --> 00:16.000 Thank you. 00:16.000 --> 00:18.000 Hello everyone. 00:18.000 --> 00:20.000 Our names are Kirk. 00:20.000 --> 00:24.000 And I'm Daniel Fernandez, Kirk Smith. 00:24.000 --> 00:29.000 And we are going to give this talk about scaling up open source batteries. 00:29.000 --> 00:39.000 So we created an organization called the Flow Battery Research Collective, 00:39.000 --> 00:51.000 which our objective is to create the first set of open source batteries for small and large scale. 00:51.000 --> 00:55.000 So this is us, this is like one of the first, 00:55.000 --> 01:01.000 we're doing one of the first demonstrations of our kids in our university in the Netherlands. 01:01.000 --> 01:09.000 So why do we want to do open source energy storage? 01:09.000 --> 01:13.000 There are no open source energy storage solutions that we know of. 01:13.000 --> 01:19.000 So if you go and look for an open source battery, you won't find anything available. 01:19.000 --> 01:22.000 You want it to like create your own battery from raw materials. 01:22.000 --> 01:27.000 You would have to figure out from like all the patents and the textbooks on everything, 01:27.000 --> 01:28.000 how to make it up yourself. 01:28.000 --> 01:31.000 There is no set of instructions of how to do this. 01:31.000 --> 01:33.000 This task is not trivial. 01:33.000 --> 01:36.000 Battery technologies are complicated, 01:36.000 --> 01:41.000 and having no blueprint means that you need to spend a lot of time and work doing it, 01:41.000 --> 01:44.000 which many people have tried through the years, 01:44.000 --> 01:48.000 but if we just have a cohesive open source strategy, 01:48.000 --> 01:51.000 then we can be much more effective. 01:51.000 --> 01:58.000 And yeah, well basically there is currently no clear path to create rechargeable energy storage from raw materials. 01:58.000 --> 02:01.000 We don't have that. 02:01.000 --> 02:05.000 And the open source alternative would improve, 02:05.000 --> 02:09.000 you know, our energy independence and it will also enhance industrial development, 02:09.000 --> 02:13.000 because now we cannot develop the same thing 20 times. 02:13.000 --> 02:18.000 As it has happened in batteries many, many times, 02:18.000 --> 02:22.000 our company starts creating some type of battery and they fail. 02:22.000 --> 02:28.000 And they spent 20 years and have 2000 patents and now all that's gone. 02:28.000 --> 02:31.000 So we should only do it once. 02:31.000 --> 02:37.000 And this will also increase energy storage access in developing countries, 02:37.000 --> 02:42.000 because now they can start from scratch even if they only have the raw materials. 02:42.000 --> 02:45.000 Our goals with this, we want to open source licensing, 02:45.000 --> 02:50.000 so we want to create the technology blueprint that anybody can use. 02:50.000 --> 02:55.000 And we don't want to sell this technology at all. 02:55.000 --> 02:57.000 We want everybody to be able to use it. 02:57.000 --> 02:59.000 And we hope to be able to, you know, 02:59.000 --> 03:05.000 maybe make some money from selling parts that we manufacture while still 03:05.000 --> 03:09.000 allowing anybody who wants to manufacture them to also do that and improve them. 03:10.000 --> 03:16.000 We want to do medium and large scale storage because that's where the usefulness of this is. 03:16.000 --> 03:20.000 And we want to do this with low material costs. 03:20.000 --> 03:25.000 We don't want to do like an open source lithium ion battery that requires 03:25.000 --> 03:29.000 and nitrin atmosphere manufacturing. 03:29.000 --> 03:31.000 I'm very complex manufacturing procedures. 03:31.000 --> 03:38.000 We want to do low material costs so that anybody can reasonably build their own battery. 03:39.000 --> 03:41.000 We also want this to be a highly reliable process. 03:41.000 --> 03:45.000 We don't want this to be a battery that you build and then the next person 03:45.000 --> 03:47.000 which tries to build it has huge problems building it. 03:47.000 --> 03:51.000 We want this to be very highly reliable. 03:51.000 --> 03:54.000 And of course, we want high material availability. 03:54.000 --> 03:57.000 We don't want to focus on materials that are very hard to source, 03:57.000 --> 04:00.000 or in very specific regions of the world. 04:00.000 --> 04:05.000 We want materials that anybody anywhere could reasonably source. 04:05.000 --> 04:10.000 And an important part of this is we want there to be openly available characterization of this 04:10.000 --> 04:14.000 so that you can build your battery and then there's a set of tests that you can run 04:14.000 --> 04:19.000 to make sure that you build it properly and that it is doing what it's supposed to do. 04:19.000 --> 04:23.000 And this is also in line with open source characterization software and hardware. 04:23.000 --> 04:26.000 So not only the battery is important, but how are you going to test it? 04:26.000 --> 04:29.000 How are you going to figure out that it's charging on this charging at the proper capacity? 04:29.000 --> 04:32.000 It's as the proper lifetimes, et cetera. 04:33.000 --> 04:40.000 And this is the first thing that we built, which is we started working on a technology called a flow battery, 04:40.000 --> 04:44.000 which is a technology that is considered ideal for large scales. 04:44.000 --> 04:51.000 In a traditional battery, your energy storage is restricted to the materials you have inside the battery. 04:51.000 --> 04:59.000 In this case, the energy storage is externalized to liquids such that you can decouple the power 04:59.000 --> 05:07.000 density of the battery from the capacity of the battery so that we can have a lot of capacity without having like a huge cell. 05:07.000 --> 05:14.000 And this is a small, you know, table top battery. 05:14.000 --> 05:16.000 And the idea of this is obviously not to store energy. 05:16.000 --> 05:20.000 The pumps consume way more energy than the battery generates. 05:20.000 --> 05:25.000 But the idea is that in academia, there is no such. 05:25.000 --> 05:34.000 There is still not a standardized small scale setup that is open source and low cost that includes everything that you need in the setup. 05:34.000 --> 05:36.000 Imagine that it's safe to touch. 05:36.000 --> 05:43.000 We are going to pass our battery kit and that safe to touch it hasn't touched any chemicals yet. 05:43.000 --> 05:50.000 But it's so that you can see it has that thing has everything the battery needs, 05:50.000 --> 05:55.000 which most of the open source kits or the open source approaches to flow batteries don't have. 05:55.000 --> 06:01.000 It has the pumps, it has the pump controls, it has the reservoirs, it has all these tiny little things. 06:01.000 --> 06:06.000 Because when we started building a battery, we realized, hey, it's not only like this thing in the middle, 06:06.000 --> 06:12.000 which is the cell, it's like the tubing, the reservoirs, everything like that tubing, 06:13.000 --> 06:20.000 to cause like 30 tries of different tubings to find because it turns out that energy that instincts like to react with other things. 06:20.000 --> 06:23.000 And this is tested. 06:23.000 --> 06:29.000 I mean, we tested this at our homes, so it's been interesting. 06:29.000 --> 06:38.000 So the first chemistry we tested and the idea of this small bench top cell is to help us characterize chemistry. 06:38.000 --> 06:41.000 Some figure out what we can do reproducerly. 06:41.000 --> 06:48.000 We started testing this zinc iodine chemistry, which we can do quite stable cycling, 06:48.000 --> 06:51.000 and we can get good energy performance. 06:51.000 --> 06:57.000 We can basically reproduce a lot of the things that we see in the scientific literature surrounding these batteries. 06:57.000 --> 07:02.000 And zinc iodide is a very reversible, very nice chemistry for the most part, 07:02.000 --> 07:07.000 except when it forms solid iodide and it's sort of a... 07:08.000 --> 07:13.000 It doesn't really explode, but you know, like the two in consplash and things like, if you're not careful. 07:13.000 --> 07:21.000 So it took a bunch of work to figure this out and to get stable charge these charge curves on efficiencies. 07:21.000 --> 07:28.000 But the cost of the zinc iodide materials is quite large, you know, it's $80 per kilowatt hour, 07:28.000 --> 07:33.000 which doesn't sound like too bad, but this is only for chemicals. 07:33.000 --> 07:38.000 It doesn't account for any of the hard work that you're seeing, it's just the chemical species. 07:38.000 --> 07:42.000 Because iodide turns out, it's not as available as we think. 07:42.000 --> 07:45.000 It is in the sea, so it is there, but it's very dilute. 07:45.000 --> 07:50.000 And then it is basically produced in very specific regions in the world. 07:50.000 --> 07:55.000 There, you doesn't produce any at all that I know of. 07:55.000 --> 07:58.000 Definitely not an industrial scale. 07:58.000 --> 08:03.000 So if you use the technology like this, you would suddenly become dependent on these material. 08:03.000 --> 08:11.000 So we tried other things that are more easily accessible. 08:11.000 --> 08:13.000 So iron is widely available in the world. 08:13.000 --> 08:20.000 Iron is widely available in the EU, so it would be very easy to get iron in the EU minds a lot of iron. 08:20.000 --> 08:27.000 And we can do iron-based chemistry, which basically we use iron in both sides of the battery. 08:27.000 --> 08:30.000 And in one side, we oxidize the iron in the other one. 08:30.000 --> 08:35.000 We reduce it, and we're basically doing a battery that's based sort of on rust. 08:35.000 --> 08:40.000 We are oxidizing every using iron, and we are able to get charge storage. 08:40.000 --> 08:46.000 This is a complicated chemistry, and we are just starting it, and we've had some pretty good results. 08:46.000 --> 08:48.000 But the price is quite low. 08:48.000 --> 08:52.000 The price is now $30 per kilowatt hour for the materials. 08:52.000 --> 08:59.000 But if you look at the energy density, the capacity here, it is like 14 on the zincio right here. 08:59.000 --> 09:08.000 Although we have been able to get this significantly higher, but then for this iron, it's like four is like all we've been able to get in a stable way. 09:08.000 --> 09:10.000 And there's challenges. 09:10.000 --> 09:16.000 But now that we have this small kit, anybody can do it, you know? 09:17.000 --> 09:20.000 You can. You can. 09:20.000 --> 09:25.000 Or you could either build a kit yourself from three different parts, machine parts. 09:25.000 --> 09:30.000 You can go to our website at VRC.gov and look at the materials build it yourself. 09:30.000 --> 09:35.000 And then you can test things and see what happens. 09:35.000 --> 09:37.000 And we have a forum. 09:37.000 --> 09:43.000 And just be safe. 09:44.000 --> 09:47.000 And then we said, okay, let's do the next step. 09:47.000 --> 09:55.000 Let's try to scale this up because this thing here is just like two square centimeters of area, very small. 09:55.000 --> 09:58.000 Now we want to do way more, you know? 09:58.000 --> 10:02.000 Because we want to store some real power, so let's make this bigger. 10:02.000 --> 10:07.000 So we did this larger cell. 10:07.000 --> 10:10.000 And we used wood for the end plate material. 10:10.000 --> 10:13.000 Turns out it's much cheaper than metal. 10:13.000 --> 10:20.000 And so this was our first try at a at a large scale cell. 10:20.000 --> 10:24.000 We like that it had like this a steam punk key look. 10:24.000 --> 10:26.000 It's very. 10:26.000 --> 10:32.000 And basically the idea of this cell is that you don't only have like a single cell like in the beginning, 10:32.000 --> 10:34.000 but this is actually a stack. 10:34.000 --> 10:38.000 So we have multiple cells that are stuck together because they voltage of these reactions. 10:38.000 --> 10:41.000 They voltage that you get from these batteries is low. 10:41.000 --> 10:47.000 You get like 1.2 0.9 volts and then you need to stack them in series to get meaningful voltages. 10:47.000 --> 10:56.000 So our idea is to build these stacks so that we can get our goal is to get a stack that we can get 12 volts at or 24. 10:56.000 --> 11:03.000 So that we can couple these with like the, you know, solar technologies and things like that. 11:03.000 --> 11:08.000 Now, we then also wanted to look at static technologies. 11:08.000 --> 11:14.000 Not only like your your flow battery technologies, but also see hey, can we do anything on the static side, 11:14.000 --> 11:19.000 that because there is also no open source static sites. 11:19.000 --> 11:23.000 Although these these static batteries have been studied for 200 years. 11:23.000 --> 11:27.000 There's no like open source let us it battery or anything like that. 11:27.000 --> 11:35.000 So we started looking and we found these copper manganese chemistry that has been developed. 11:35.000 --> 11:39.000 And we said, well, this sounds pretty interesting. Let's test it out. 11:39.000 --> 11:43.000 There's patents for these several. 11:43.000 --> 11:53.000 So it was like, okay, how we can check, how can we change this so that it's not infringing on these patents and then we found these instead of using sulfuric acid. 11:53.000 --> 12:00.000 We decided to test a chemistry with methane sulfuric acid, which is a similar acid, but it's not the same acid. 12:00.000 --> 12:05.000 So it's not covered by their IP allegedly. 12:05.000 --> 12:08.000 I believe it's my personal opinion. 12:08.000 --> 12:10.000 No lawyer here. 12:10.000 --> 12:21.000 And it's a, we tested this with carbon felt and graphola electrodes and this is basically just copper and manganese and we do these reaction in acid that you have here at the bottom. 12:21.000 --> 12:28.000 And the BC is very simple. You just have a carbon material, a solution and then the electrodes to extract it. 12:28.000 --> 12:35.000 And we actually get pretty good energy densities that are comparable with those of lead acid batteries. 12:35.000 --> 12:42.000 And pretty much similar to the results that you find in the scientific literature for the sulfuric acid site of these batteries. 12:42.000 --> 12:47.000 And the good thing about these batteries is that they electrolytes such low cost. 12:47.000 --> 12:50.000 It's only 18 to 16 dollars per kilowatt hour. 12:50.000 --> 12:58.000 So this is like really cheap and it's like, hey, well, maybe I could like build this in my backyard, like, don't. 12:58.000 --> 13:03.000 But you, it's like, yeah, maybe this is we can do this. 13:03.000 --> 13:09.000 And then we started looking, hey, what, what if we wanted to be like a bigish thing, you know, what would that look like? 13:09.000 --> 13:13.000 Well, it turns out that the devil is in the details surprisingly. 13:13.000 --> 13:20.000 So while the chemicals are very cheap, the materials are really not contrary to a flow battery in a flow battery. 13:20.000 --> 13:27.000 We have these big tanks and then the areas that we where we are extracting charge are quite like small. 13:27.000 --> 13:32.000 But here in an normal battery, we need, we need like bigger electrodes. 13:32.000 --> 13:38.000 And it turns out that the carbon felt material, which is like the material where we deposit and we extract things from. 13:38.000 --> 13:40.000 And it's actually very expensive. 13:40.000 --> 13:46.000 It's like, if we did this, it would be, it doesn't show. 13:46.000 --> 13:48.000 And it's super flushed. 13:48.000 --> 13:49.000 Yeah, no. 13:49.000 --> 13:51.000 No, okay. 13:51.000 --> 13:59.000 Yeah, so it's actually $310 per kilowatt hour when you take into account, like, how expensive all these materials are. 13:59.000 --> 14:05.000 And the fact that you have like, this, this was with like all materials we could buy. 14:05.000 --> 14:12.000 But turns out that bulk metal, like if we have big metal plates and graphite plates, these are expensive as well. 14:12.000 --> 14:17.000 You can see all of these costs is just like things that go in there that are not playing into the energy at all. 14:17.000 --> 14:21.000 They are just they're current collecting and the conductive materials. 14:21.000 --> 14:28.000 So we think for comparison, at least in my own phosphate battery is $60 to $80 per kilowatt hour. 14:28.000 --> 14:31.000 Like those things are really, really cheap. 14:31.000 --> 14:35.000 But I bet you cannot build one of those at home. 14:35.000 --> 14:44.000 And then, so we say, what can we use a material that is less expensive? 14:44.000 --> 14:53.000 You know, so we started looking for what's the cheapest conductive material you can get and it turns out there's something called calcine petroleum coke. 14:53.000 --> 14:56.000 And that's like, that's like they give it away. 14:56.000 --> 14:59.000 That's like an industrial waste product almost. 14:59.000 --> 15:07.000 And then we can't, we think we can make paste with this and if we like do some little bit of magic with the way we call a current. 15:07.000 --> 15:16.000 We think we can get this down to $55 per kilowatt hour and dreaming right now if we can do this like we think we should be able to. 15:16.000 --> 15:26.000 But it's one of our next steps is to actually build one of these static batteries using these sort of process with these materials and see if we can, you know, figure it out. 15:26.000 --> 15:28.000 So what's our plan? 15:28.000 --> 15:29.000 Right now. 15:29.000 --> 15:42.000 We want to continue test and validate the large sale that you see there and we want to create the 12 volt stack and give people a blueprint of like, hey, you can build an open source stack. 15:42.000 --> 15:51.000 Stacks, there's no open source stacks. There's a bunch of like small scale sales that you can build for like our lab scale sale. 15:51.000 --> 15:53.000 There's a few open source projects for that. 15:53.000 --> 16:02.000 No open source projects on stacks because industry normally finances academics and when people get to the stack level industry says, no, no, no, the stack is not open source. 16:02.000 --> 16:04.000 The stack is for us. 16:04.000 --> 16:09.000 And then they all go bankrupt and then the stack is for no one. 16:09.000 --> 16:15.000 So stacks have been developed many times independently, many times in industry. 16:15.000 --> 16:18.000 So we are just going to do it once. 16:18.000 --> 16:23.000 And then we want to produce stable charging discharge curves with the large flow sale. 16:23.000 --> 16:30.000 The large flow sale has been challenging because it turns out that if you have something large making it not leak is harder. 16:30.000 --> 16:42.000 So there's been we've had some some challenges with the entire design and we have been made a lot of progress and we are about to start doing cycling testing with our large scale sale. 16:42.000 --> 16:55.000 And we hope we can get stable charging discharge curves because we want to give you guys something figuratively that you can just use and reproduce, you know, and get some results. 16:55.000 --> 17:02.000 And then we would want to do a one kilo watt hour stacked flow battery because that is like useful energy. 17:02.000 --> 17:08.000 You know, once you get to the kilo watt hour scale, it's like it's it's working, you know, it's no longer like a toy. 17:08.000 --> 17:11.000 It's no longer like an academic exercise. 17:11.000 --> 17:17.000 So we want to get there with the sinchiodine chemistry, which is the one we have the most trust on. 17:17.000 --> 17:23.000 And then we want to continue validating these iron chemistry that I showed you are at a small scale. 17:23.000 --> 17:27.000 Because it's not ready for the big scale at all. 17:27.000 --> 17:29.000 We want to continue testing. 17:29.000 --> 17:40.000 But now that we have this small kid, hopefully we can have our community testing our kid, our small skills kid has already been reproduced at least three times that we know of independently. 17:40.000 --> 17:49.000 Like not by us at all, which means that the design is a, you know, manufacturer by independent people. 17:49.000 --> 17:55.000 And then we want to do a test as small scale petrol in coke copper manganese battery. 17:55.000 --> 18:01.000 And see if we can create a blueprint so that people can manufacture those electrodes and manufacture those batteries. 18:01.000 --> 18:07.000 That battery is special interesting because it is, if we are able to build those materials correctly, 18:07.000 --> 18:15.000 would be a faster and easier route to larger energy storage. 18:15.000 --> 18:19.000 Especially in developing countries, this materials are very easy to get. 18:19.000 --> 18:21.000 So it would be great. 18:21.000 --> 18:30.000 And then a medium scale copper manganese battery would be our next test, our next step, which would be in like the 32 100 watt hour range. 18:30.000 --> 18:39.000 Would would be, which would be something, you know, like probably around a leader in size or a little bit more. 18:39.000 --> 18:54.000 And well, the great thing about this small scale kid is that we can now test a bunch of different chemistries that come out and try to see if the patterns that come out have any holes that we can just like squeeze into a get like open source technology server. 18:54.000 --> 18:57.000 Hopefully nobody will sue us. 18:58.000 --> 19:04.000 So, unless we want to acknowledge, you know, the people who have made this possible. 19:04.000 --> 19:11.000 And especially, you know, an el net has supported us financially and has made a lot of what you see possible. 19:11.000 --> 19:16.000 They funded the creation of our small scale kid and our large scale flow battery. 19:16.000 --> 19:22.000 And hopefully we will continue to work with them in the long term. 19:22.000 --> 19:27.000 And well, thank you very much for all your attention. 19:27.000 --> 19:33.000 And if you want to visit us, you can go to abrc.dev and see our project. 19:33.000 --> 19:43.000 We have six minutes for questions. 19:43.000 --> 19:48.000 Okay. 19:48.000 --> 19:52.000 Hi, nice to meet you. 19:52.000 --> 19:55.000 What worries me a bit is cycling. 19:55.000 --> 20:00.000 So you missed it like five or ten cycles. 20:00.000 --> 20:03.000 Can you get more hungry for food? 20:03.000 --> 20:04.000 Okay. 20:04.000 --> 20:12.000 So you ask about the cycle ability of the battery, whether we can get to higher cycles on 10. 20:12.000 --> 20:15.000 The answer is yes, we can. 20:15.000 --> 20:18.000 I don't know if we can get to 10 years of cycling. 20:18.000 --> 20:25.000 I just, so the longest cycle of the battery has been something like three weeks, 20:25.000 --> 20:32.000 which has been something like a hundred cycles with our single income industry, which worked well. 20:32.000 --> 20:40.000 But I, the problem is that I don't have the time to do the cycle for so long, 20:40.000 --> 20:47.000 because our battery areas are not small enough and our volumes tiny enough to cycle like very quickly. 20:47.000 --> 20:50.000 So the cycling times are longer. 20:50.000 --> 20:56.000 But they, they functionality of a battery is not only measuring the number of times you can cycle it back and forth, 20:56.000 --> 20:59.000 but also on the amount of time you're cycling. 20:59.000 --> 21:06.000 You know, it's not the same to cycle a tiny battery a hundred times in like an hour versus cycling a bigger battery. 21:06.000 --> 21:09.000 Fewer times, but like a much longer time. 21:09.000 --> 21:12.000 But yeah, I mean, I don't know. 21:12.000 --> 21:19.000 I haven't, I haven't cycleed it for, you know, normally we would expect a battery that can do 10 years to be 21:19.000 --> 21:21.000 cycleed thousands of times. 21:21.000 --> 21:25.000 So it should be possible. 21:25.000 --> 21:27.000 Like what? 21:27.000 --> 21:33.000 But I don't know, maybe some of you would want to test, you know, long-term cycling. 21:33.000 --> 21:36.000 Any other questions? 21:36.000 --> 21:49.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 21:49.000 --> 21:50.000 Yeah, yeah. 21:50.000 --> 21:52.000 So you were asking about Peter Allen's project? 21:52.000 --> 21:56.000 Yeah, I'm, I've seen that. 21:56.000 --> 22:02.000 Yeah, he's seen, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's an iron-based battery and he's seen he's in Idaho actually. 22:02.000 --> 22:04.000 As far as I remember. 22:04.000 --> 22:05.000 Yeah. 22:05.000 --> 22:13.000 So in static batteries, there is his project, which I think is polished three versions now. 22:13.000 --> 22:14.000 So I stand corrected. 22:14.000 --> 22:15.000 There is one. 22:15.000 --> 22:22.000 Peter Allen's project. 22:22.000 --> 22:30.000 Yeah, so yeah, there's, yeah, there's, there's say the Peter Allen is a great point. 22:31.000 --> 22:36.000 He is done the effort to make a battery that is reproducible and that is like validated. 22:36.000 --> 22:38.000 So yeah, a lot of credit to him. 22:38.000 --> 22:44.000 And then the efforts on YouTube that you see on sync bromine batteries and all that. 22:44.000 --> 22:51.000 While the sync bromine chemistry is there and it is a reasonable battery, it is a reasonable battery chemistry. 22:51.000 --> 22:57.000 It is also a really dangerous battery chemistry and not a really great battery. 22:57.000 --> 22:59.000 It has a lot of levels in the details. 22:59.000 --> 23:02.000 Especially bromine is extremely aggressive chemically. 23:02.000 --> 23:04.000 It will lead to everything. 23:04.000 --> 23:12.000 Like, even the carbon materials like the graph I felt and the graphic, the bromine will destroy them with time. 23:12.000 --> 23:23.000 And bromine is a dangerous chemical substance that you want to have like a 50 gallon barrel that is full of elemental bromine at your house. 23:23.000 --> 23:26.000 Like, that you build yourself. 23:27.000 --> 23:32.000 Yeah, sure. 23:32.000 --> 23:38.000 But then will your neighbors want to have a 50 gallon barrel of bromine? 23:38.000 --> 23:45.000 Like, it is possible, but I think there is nobody has put up plans to say, okay, this is a sync bromine battery. 23:45.000 --> 23:46.000 Build it this way. 23:46.000 --> 23:48.000 These are the expected cycling results. 23:48.000 --> 23:54.000 This is, so yeah, you could build one, but you cannot build like a standard one from open source. 23:54.000 --> 23:59.000 But yeah, great point I would put around. Thanks for reminding me. 24:04.000 --> 24:05.000 I have a lot of questions. 24:05.000 --> 24:07.000 We'll try to put some open out. 24:07.000 --> 24:12.000 My first one is, are you working with open source to touch your staff and what are you using to cycle? 24:12.000 --> 24:14.000 And you touch a little bit on characterization. 24:14.000 --> 24:19.000 What are you using to characterize the batteries right now and like you understand how they fail? 24:19.000 --> 24:22.000 That sort of thing. 24:22.000 --> 24:31.000 Yeah, so you ask about how we, we're using any open source potential stats and how we are characterizing them basically. 24:31.000 --> 24:38.000 So we are currently using the my stat open source potential stat, which is a great potential stat. 24:38.000 --> 24:42.000 And we use that for the cycling of the small scale battery. 24:42.000 --> 24:47.000 For the large scale, it's not, it doesn't have a high enough current rating. 24:47.000 --> 24:49.000 But we use it for all our small scale tests. 24:49.000 --> 24:53.000 The software, we don't use the my stat software or the original software. 24:53.000 --> 25:01.000 We have heavily modified it to, to allow us to control pumps, to allow us to do a lot of flow battery tests. 25:01.000 --> 25:06.000 We have also done using the my stat open source potential stat. 25:06.000 --> 25:14.000 We have also done other characterization tests like cyclic bolt time entries and things like that outside to characterize the chemistries. 25:14.000 --> 25:23.000 Oh, yeah, yeah, we have done plating stripping experiments and things like that. 25:23.000 --> 25:42.000 But I'm, I'm not, like, we really don't have the ability to do like as deep of a characterization as you would do in like industry or academy. 25:42.000 --> 25:48.000 Because we kind of do things like microscopy or material analysis or things like that that would be really useful. 25:48.000 --> 25:50.000 You can do that. 25:50.000 --> 25:51.000 That's the idea. 25:51.000 --> 25:52.000 I mean, that's the idea. 25:52.000 --> 26:01.000 Like with when you have this open source, I initially, if the idea is that we don't do like, it's only, if it's only the two of us, we will get nowhere. 26:01.000 --> 26:02.000 It should be like all of us. 26:02.000 --> 26:05.000 And then we can't get somewhere, you know, much better. 26:05.000 --> 26:12.000 And like I have, if you do it, if you build the battery and you say, hey, your battery is, this design is not good. 26:12.000 --> 26:15.000 I have this better, the assignment will, will take it. 26:15.000 --> 26:20.000 I mean, we have no attachment to the battery. 26:20.000 --> 26:21.000 Yeah. 26:21.000 --> 26:22.000 Okay. 26:22.000 --> 26:23.000 Thank you.