WEBVTT

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This is a new one for us, so that's the first time that we are doing a panel in the collaboration

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Thank you for joining us.

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This panel will be about integration between collaborative applications.

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So the moderator will be yours and I will let the others introduce maybe.

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Is it working now? Yes, it is.

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All right, and I'm going to give this to you already, Ludovic.

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You get introduced yourself first.

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So I'm Ludovic. I'm the CEO and founder of Xwiki.

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Well, Xwiki is a company behind the project prepared that was presented before, but also the project Xwiki itself.

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And we've been doing open source for 20 years.

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Hi, I'm Bjorn. I'm the co-founder of next cloud.

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We are doing we start out as a filesing and share solution.

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But these days we have a complete content collaboration platform.

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So you can do basically everything you want with next cloud.

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You can manage your files, but you may have a group of integration.

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We have many editors and viewers.

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Text, text, text, within audio chat integration.

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So everything you expect from a particular collaboration platform.

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And maybe most important, which is also interesting for the discussion.

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We will have here.

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Next up can also serve as a platform, both to integrate stuff directly with the next cloud.

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Or to use next up to integrate into existing other solutions, which I'm sure will also discuss here a little bit in the panel.

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Hello, I'm Ingol from Univention, responsible for, let's say, technology at Univention, however.

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You mentioned also in the market for more than 20 years.

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Livering, you might know the open source solution unit corporate server, which is focused on bringing open source technology easily to customers.

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And we recently released the core of our software called Noobos, which is an identity management solution.

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And identity management means you manage users, but the users need to do something.

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And so if we don't integrate with someone else, users can't do anything.

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So integration is key for us.

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Yeah, hi, I'm Dila Denta, co-founder and CEO of Open Project.

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And it's open project has been around 13 years, I don't know, 14 years.

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And we integrated with Univention, with next cloud.

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And we would integrate with XViki.

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And we also integrating in the server and web plays called Open Desk.

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I see people from Open Desk over here as well.

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So the topic of integration is very deep on the road map of Open Project.

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By the way, Open Project is a collaborative online project management environment.

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And it runs in your own service or in our cloud.

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And so we do also do the hosting.

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Yeah, let's get started.

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All right, thank you.

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So I'm Yos.

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I'm also from next cloud like Bjorn.

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So I don't have to explain what next up is about anymore.

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It's not only the first panel here, but it's also the first time I try to ask questions in the panel.

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So bear with me here.

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I always think answering the questions is easy, just debating it for Bjorn.

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What is the easiest?

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We will see.

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So Open Source is a lot of a bad collaboration.

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I think it was interesting the first couple.

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The last couple of talks are was a project basically building a

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disinking engine where you can just point it to a folder and then

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with different text editors work on it.

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And they were building on these different libraries and tools that they

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found open source on the internet.

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And I think this is one important component of how Open Source works.

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That's a lot of projects are using libraries to integrate into their own

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products.

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For example, next up, we have the next text editor, which is built on.

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I don't know the name of the underlying library.

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You don't know either.

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But sometimes you take a library somewhere, you build it into your

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products.

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And this happens, of course, all the time.

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So that's one way of having the collaboration.

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But there are other ways.

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So that's the one.

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So there are other ways.

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Sometimes you have something like a library or open project, which is a

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huge thing on its own, which actually integrate many of these other things

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by itself.

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And yet you want to be able to exchange data with that, like

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Frost's next cloud.

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And so that's an entire different level of integration and collaboration.

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And so that's what we wanted to talk a bit about because in this

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room of course are a tons of projects that are integrating and

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collaborating and building things that are as the

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previous speakers at maybe why is there a new protocol.

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So I think it's just interesting to go over these different levels of

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collaboration, integration, et cetera.

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So I'm just going to fire off the first question and then a new view

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can, you know, who's first basically can try and answer it.

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So how is this around competition, basically?

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How do you see the role of collaboration versus maybe

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competition also between projects like how can

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project balance that?

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And if you're willing to give that a shot?

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I can go with simple one.

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For example, open project has fire management in the light light

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light version.

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Like attachments to task.

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And you could say that it's we're doing something similar

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to the next cloud, but actually we're not.

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It's ridiculous.

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Next cloud is doing something smaller task in the deck.

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A deck for canvas, task management, but it in the future

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richness, it can't compete with open project.

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So it makes sense to work together and ignore those little

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tiny places where we are competing.

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And instead build something greater, there is more value in total

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and can really compete with, you know, with the real challenge

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which is the big tech.

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And so I usually don't see so much competition, but maybe

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the competition for project management software in the open source

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field is not as big as maybe, I don't know, for other players.

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I really like, for example, I can only add on that.

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But I would like to add on a higher level.

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I mean, we are all have parts of our solutions which

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similar to each other.

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I think each one of you has the user management.

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And we come there with the user management.

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But it still makes totally sense to have a decision if you want

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to build a solution, you have a decision what's the leading system.

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And then the others integrate with that.

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And each one of us is better in something that they can lead.

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And that they can provide to the solution and then

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integration makes totally sense.

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And the other level I wanted to add here is that I think

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only we are all growing companies.

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And we represent a few hundred people here, I think.

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But still, that's small in terms of IT industry.

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And so we can only grow together.

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We can't solve everything by our own.

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No surprise.

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I like your example as well.

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I mean, it's also a really nice example because it takes a

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show the thing here.

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I think that's the big advantage of open source.

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We don't have to compete with each other all the time.

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We don't have to reinvent the wheel.

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But we can build up on what's already there.

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And then, of course, we can give our user the choice,

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so that they can use the best thing they need.

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If they use open broad check because their main task is

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project management.

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And they just need a small place to install the files.

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Then feel free go with it.

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Other way around, if next, if next,

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our users are more interested in the next sort of features.

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And it's just need a small task management.

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And let's go with our tech solution.

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They don't need to open broad check.

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And then we have users, of course,

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who need to have the full power of next cloud.

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And then we complete a broad check management.

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And then we integrate with each other.

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And then people can use the best of both worlds.

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And I think that's one of the really strengths of open source.

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That you have all these choices.

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And we can collaborate because all our code is open.

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Our communities are open.

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There are no borders between it.

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And I think that's the big power of open source.

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Yeah, I think.

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I mean, clients tend to push you to they ask you,

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oh, I would like this additional feature in your software.

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That's actually a bit outside of your core,

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the core benefit of your software.

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And so you end up doing this little extension

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that's not doing that.

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This is how we ended up having tasks in it.

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And actually, for some stuff,

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it makes sense.

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In a Wikipedia page, people love to have to do.

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But the to-do is not a project management tool.

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It does project management.

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But it's a very light project management.

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And so it makes a lot of sense to have a to-do in a Wikipedia page.

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But it would be also very interesting to extend to connect

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that to-do to a project management tool.

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So, and so in the end, you don't really compete because you're not going as deep

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in the subject of each of these needs.

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And it takes a lot of time to go deep.

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And as you mentioned, the real competition is not the other open source people.

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The real competition is the big tech.

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And if you look at what the big tech do,

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they do have, they go seriously deep in each of the tools.

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So they're going to go very deep in office,

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very deep in project management, very deep in files,

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very deep in wickies, etc.

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And so we need as open source people to provide a very good alternative

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that will go very deep on all of these subjects.

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And each of us also need simple tools that go very quickly in the market.

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And so that the customers can still take them even if they take the big tech on the other side,

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so that we can penetrate the big companies with software.

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Most of our clients, we didn't sell them where there is next cloud.

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We sold them where there is Microsoft.

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And they didn't like the wickie of Microsoft.

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They preferred the open source wickie that goes deeply in the subject of wickies.

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And so we never really competed with other open source tools.

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Actually, and the opportunity to actually work together is much bigger.

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If as an alternative to big techs, and that's actually what open desk is,

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now look, if we all put everything that we did together,

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and if we connect them well, then we're going to be able to just say,

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look, just get rid of Microsoft to Google,

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and you can just use open source all together for everything.

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So several of you brought up open source, like being open source.

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Pure and sets, like it means lower barriers.

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Can you maybe elaborate more like why, like if we're all proprietors of the company,

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it wouldn't be maybe also have an incentive to integrate,

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what does open source make a difference there?

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First, I think, because the community that the code is open,

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so we can go to each other and go to our repositories,

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and provide for requests, can really work together with the developers.

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That's something you can do with non-free software.

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The other thing I would like to challenge actually,

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the assumption that the big tech also have an interest in working together.

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My experience, big tech, most of the time,

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to isolate each other because they want to grow their silo,

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as big as possible.

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Maybe that's a good point to tell a bit of funny side note.

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There was a few years ago, I gave a talk at the conference,

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and I presented next-slout federated sharing feature,

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which allows you to have many different next-slout servers,

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and you can share freely across the instance, no matter where your server is.

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And in the audience, there was someone from Dropbox,

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and they came to me after the presentation and said,

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this was the Dropbox developer back then,

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told me, oh, that's super awesome.

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We at Dropbox should implement this API as well.

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We should also implement this federation.

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We exchange context data and said,

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we definitely have to talk afterwards, guess what?

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We never talked, because he was an engineer,

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of course, he liked the technology and the idea that we can integrate,

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but probably he got back to his bosses,

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and he said, no, that's not our interest.

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And we want to grow our side,

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or we want everybody uses our solution.

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We don't have to interest in having this,

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so I would actually challenge this assumption a little bit.

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Maybe someone else wants that?

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I remember, for example, when we started the next-slout integrator,

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like two years ago, or three, I don't know, for quite a long time already.

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And I remember that we were willing to invest,

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like we were willing to put people on that work,

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and wanted to have that integration.

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I remember that next-cloud was saying,

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sure, go for it.

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Something like that, and being open source help,

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as we could simply take, get into the next-cloud code,

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and extend the next-cloud code for what we needed.

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No, there were definitely stuff missing,

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that we needed, and we could simply build it,

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and it could be, let's say, one side at least,

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the development could be pushed, right?

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Do that with Microsoft, asking for the code,

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and as they may, can we extend that a little bit with an app,

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or something like this?

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It's a year, a SharePoint app exists,

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but they don't allow all this stuff.

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It's not as free, so it really can make a difference

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if both need to agree to take the initiative,

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or just one part.

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And I think here it worked out pretty well.

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Yeah, what I was in addition thinking was,

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open source drives you to do the right thing,

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because if you don't do the right thing,

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someone else will take the code and we do it.

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So it's a different thinking than drive to maximise the revenue.

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So we also need revenue to pay our developers and so on,

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so that's not the point itself,

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but we have to think about the right thing,

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and integration is often the right thing to do,

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because things are already there,

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there are good solutions,

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why not integrate instead of stuff on your own.

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So I think that's really a different thinking.

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So I think we have to think a bit about what the situation is

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on the big tech side is,

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I mean, it's massively cloud services.

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You massively can not install them anymore in your company,

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so they decide what goes in the cloud service.

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They can turn on turn off features at any time.

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So I mean, I've seen Google being open with Google chat,

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which was XMPP at the beginning,

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and overnight they stopped it,

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and it was not compatible with XMPP anymore.

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Slack was RFC compatible, closed RFC compatibility.

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So when they want to adopt users and get people,

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they open their APIs,

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they make APIs open, they let people connect,

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and at some point they say,

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that's not an interest anymore,

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which is closed that integration.

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So they can be very open,

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and oh, here is my API,

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you can put plugins from my app,

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bring me value, bring me value,

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bring me value to my app,

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and then at some point they say,

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look, now I build an app that is a competitive to you,

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and I'm going to advertise it so much

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that nobody will ever see that there was an integration with your app.

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That's not happening in open source.

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Yes, you could do the same thing in the package that you build,

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in the software that you build,

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and stuff like that,

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you can bundle more stuff as the open source provider.

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But in the end the customer is king,

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and the customer is choosing the bricks,

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and if it tells you,

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I'm going to use this brick,

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I would want to deactivate this one,

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and this one with open source,

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you can do it anyway if you really want,

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and it will push you as a smaller company to actually do it,

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and if you want to integrate,

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if it prefers to take this brick for chat,

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and this brick for thousands,

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and this one for Wiki,

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he will be able to do it,

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and if an integration is not done,

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technically you can even do it himself.

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So you have this freedom that keeps all the vendors honest,

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about what the power they have towards the market.

16:58.000 --> 17:01.000
This is not what's happening in the big tech side.

17:01.000 --> 17:03.000
No, absolutely.

17:03.000 --> 17:04.000
All right, thank you.

17:04.000 --> 17:05.000
I think that's really,

17:06.000 --> 17:08.000
yeah, interesting points there.

17:08.000 --> 17:13.000
So each of your projects then benefits from these integrations.

17:13.000 --> 17:16.000
I mean, clearly, could you elaborate,

17:16.000 --> 17:18.000
like what does this mean in the market?

17:18.000 --> 17:19.000
Does it help you?

17:19.000 --> 17:20.000
Does it help you in sales?

17:20.000 --> 17:22.000
Does it help you in how you're perceived?

17:22.000 --> 17:24.000
Is there collaborative marketing benefits?

17:24.000 --> 17:26.000
Like how does this benefit?

17:26.000 --> 17:29.000
You was open source companies.

17:29.000 --> 17:31.000
I mean, I can continue on that.

17:31.000 --> 17:38.000
So first, just talking about the fact that we work together

17:38.000 --> 17:40.000
is super beneficial in the market.

17:40.000 --> 17:43.000
I think open source needs to show that it's stronger

17:43.000 --> 17:45.000
with multiple companies.

17:45.000 --> 17:49.000
And so, for example, when we started working on open desk

17:49.000 --> 17:51.000
and with next cloud,

17:51.000 --> 17:54.000
I mean, it clearly made us much more credible in Germany.

17:54.000 --> 17:56.000
We're French company,

17:56.000 --> 17:58.000
and the people in Germany say,

17:58.000 --> 18:02.000
oh, look, if these German companies are talking about this French company,

18:02.000 --> 18:04.000
maybe we should look at what they do.

18:04.000 --> 18:08.000
So first it gives you credibility the fact that you talk about each other

18:08.000 --> 18:11.000
and that each company is saying,

18:11.000 --> 18:13.000
oh, look, this software is also a good one.

18:13.000 --> 18:15.000
So that's the first value.

18:15.000 --> 18:18.000
Then there is, of course, the technical value of the integration.

18:18.000 --> 18:20.000
So typically with open project,

18:20.000 --> 18:22.000
and this is a big reason why we want to integrate

18:22.000 --> 18:24.000
strongly with open project,

18:24.000 --> 18:27.000
we're going after conference plus gyra.

18:27.000 --> 18:31.000
And if we want to migrate all the conferences in the world

18:31.000 --> 18:32.000
to exquisite,

18:32.000 --> 18:34.000
so that we can get much more,

18:34.000 --> 18:36.000
many more companies,

18:36.000 --> 18:39.000
actually in a significant amount of cases,

18:39.000 --> 18:41.000
if there is no solution to migrate gyra,

18:41.000 --> 18:43.000
it's not going to happen.

18:43.000 --> 18:46.000
And so we need open project to actually do it.

18:46.000 --> 18:49.000
So if it happens,

18:49.000 --> 18:51.000
and if we have the integration,

18:51.000 --> 18:55.000
then we will be able to tackle that global solution

18:55.000 --> 18:58.000
and to get more users on top of the issue.

18:58.000 --> 18:59.000
So I think that's true.

18:59.000 --> 19:03.000
These integrations are heavily demanded by the market.

19:03.000 --> 19:07.000
So I mean, I had the discussion with CIOs of French company,

19:07.000 --> 19:11.000
and they say the main reason we use Microsoft

19:11.000 --> 19:14.000
is because it's an only one integrated package for us.

19:14.000 --> 19:16.000
One buyer, one people to buy it.

19:16.000 --> 19:20.000
One guy to say when we're not happy,

19:20.000 --> 19:23.000
although probably there has no effect.

19:23.000 --> 19:25.000
When they're not happy,

19:25.000 --> 19:28.000
but one people discuss one contract,

19:28.000 --> 19:29.000
one thing,

19:29.000 --> 19:32.000
everything, the integrations are there.

19:32.000 --> 19:34.000
It's simple for them.

19:34.000 --> 19:37.000
They want simplicity and reduce complexity.

19:37.000 --> 19:40.000
And so we need to have that too.

19:40.000 --> 19:41.000
And if we do that,

19:41.000 --> 19:45.000
then we're going to get more customers.

19:45.000 --> 19:49.000
I think it boils down to what you said before.

19:49.000 --> 19:50.000
The customer's king,

19:50.000 --> 19:52.000
and that's not only true for the customer,

19:52.000 --> 19:55.000
but also for a relevant for the audience here,

19:55.000 --> 19:56.000
the users,

19:56.000 --> 19:58.000
because open source not only cares about customers,

19:58.000 --> 20:00.000
but also as you all know,

20:00.000 --> 20:02.000
a lot about the normal users of the software.

20:02.000 --> 20:05.000
So we all, of course, try to provide what the users

20:05.000 --> 20:07.000
want and need to for the daily work.

20:07.000 --> 20:10.000
And that's just how we are driven at the end.

20:10.000 --> 20:11.000
So I ended up in introduction.

20:11.000 --> 20:12.000
I said that next,

20:12.000 --> 20:14.000
it's a complete content collaboration platform.

20:14.000 --> 20:16.000
So we can do a lot of stuff.

20:16.000 --> 20:17.000
And there are a lot of customers,

20:17.000 --> 20:19.000
and use out there who like it.

20:19.000 --> 20:20.000
They like it,

20:20.000 --> 20:23.000
and each of the module is the best possible one in the world,

20:23.000 --> 20:25.000
but it's really everything in one platform,

20:25.000 --> 20:26.000
nice and integrated.

20:26.000 --> 20:27.000
And then that's great.

20:27.000 --> 20:28.000
And then we have customers,

20:28.000 --> 20:29.000
and they can use us,

20:29.000 --> 20:30.000
who say,

20:30.000 --> 20:32.000
now I want to have the best possible filesing solution,

20:32.000 --> 20:34.000
come behind with the best possible.

20:34.000 --> 20:35.000
Use the management,

20:35.000 --> 20:36.000
the best possible knowledge management,

20:36.000 --> 20:38.000
and the best possible project management,

20:38.000 --> 20:39.000
just to pick the example,

20:39.000 --> 20:41.000
which is sitting here at the panel.

20:41.000 --> 20:42.000
And then we say,

20:42.000 --> 20:43.000
of course,

20:43.000 --> 20:44.000
then that's why we integrating with them,

20:44.000 --> 20:47.000
and that's why you can use this possible pieces.

20:47.000 --> 20:51.000
Or you exchange single file components out of it.

20:51.000 --> 20:52.000
And at the end,

20:52.000 --> 20:55.000
we are all acting to what the market,

20:55.000 --> 20:56.000
what the customers,

20:56.000 --> 20:58.000
and also the users,

20:58.000 --> 20:59.000
one,

20:59.000 --> 21:00.000
because as you also said,

21:00.000 --> 21:03.000
that's also the truth about open source.

21:03.000 --> 21:04.000
If you go in the wrong direction,

21:04.000 --> 21:06.000
people will just fork you,

21:06.000 --> 21:07.000
or do something else,

21:07.000 --> 21:08.000
and do something else.

21:08.000 --> 21:10.000
So I think that's the world boils down at the end,

21:10.000 --> 21:12.000
and that's why I think at the end,

21:12.000 --> 21:13.000
it's beneficial for all of us.

21:13.000 --> 21:14.000
Also,

21:14.000 --> 21:16.000
if we take different passes at the end,

21:16.000 --> 21:18.000
it's all beneficial because at the end,

21:18.000 --> 21:20.000
we together can serve what the users,

21:20.000 --> 21:21.000
what you need,

21:21.000 --> 21:22.000
and this makes us happy,

21:22.000 --> 21:23.000
and this makes you happy,

21:23.000 --> 21:26.000
and that's the best for all of us at the end.

21:30.000 --> 21:32.000
I can only add our own solution here,

21:32.000 --> 21:35.000
because integration for us is key.

21:35.000 --> 21:37.000
I've said that in the introduction,

21:37.000 --> 21:39.000
because integration is actually the pain point

21:39.000 --> 21:43.000
that makes user use in identity management.

21:43.000 --> 21:46.000
If an organization grows,

21:46.000 --> 21:50.000
they can't explain the user that they have five different accounts

21:50.000 --> 21:52.000
for six different applications,

21:52.000 --> 21:55.000
and so integrating them is key,

21:55.000 --> 21:56.000
and that's what we do.

21:56.000 --> 21:58.000
So that's actually our job,

21:58.000 --> 22:00.000
integrating on the initial level,

22:00.000 --> 22:02.000
and the initial level is the user needs to have access

22:02.000 --> 22:03.000
to each application.

22:03.000 --> 22:04.000
Afterwards,

22:04.000 --> 22:07.000
there can be a functional integration,

22:07.000 --> 22:10.000
where things are exchange data is exchange and so on.

22:10.000 --> 22:12.000
So without the need of integration,

22:12.000 --> 22:14.000
you don't need an IRM.

22:16.000 --> 22:19.000
Yeah, the question was about,

22:19.000 --> 22:21.000
if we can integrate in marketing and sales

22:21.000 --> 22:24.000
and all benefit from,

22:24.000 --> 22:26.000
from the integration on that field,

22:26.000 --> 22:28.000
and yes, of course,

22:28.000 --> 22:30.000
the obvious thing is like,

22:30.000 --> 22:32.000
hey, show me your clients,

22:32.000 --> 22:35.000
because we have clients and you have clients,

22:35.000 --> 22:38.000
and the clients that book subscriptions

22:38.000 --> 22:40.000
with Open Project,

22:40.000 --> 22:42.000
they probably share the same values and expectations

22:42.000 --> 22:45.000
of the software as your clients do.

22:45.000 --> 22:48.000
So if you can get to our clients,

22:48.000 --> 22:50.000
and then we can open the box,

22:50.000 --> 22:52.000
and you can open the box,

22:52.000 --> 22:54.000
showing us your clients,

22:54.000 --> 22:57.000
or helping us to get in contact with them,

22:57.000 --> 23:02.000
it's much more likely to get a conversion done

23:02.000 --> 23:06.000
in that area than if it was with Microsoft.

23:06.000 --> 23:09.000
The values are not shared the same.

23:09.000 --> 23:10.000
Someone who's used to,

23:10.000 --> 23:11.000
I don't know,

23:11.000 --> 23:13.000
writing notes in a word document,

23:13.000 --> 23:15.000
might not be on the same level of,

23:15.000 --> 23:18.000
or might not share the same values

23:18.000 --> 23:21.000
or be triggered by the same stuff as someone

23:21.000 --> 23:23.000
who would do this in collaboration online,

23:23.000 --> 23:25.000
in on next cloud.

23:25.000 --> 23:28.000
They need to tick differently.

23:28.000 --> 23:30.000
So yes, of course,

23:30.000 --> 23:32.000
there's a huge huge opportunity,

23:32.000 --> 23:35.000
and I think we should use that much more often.

23:36.000 --> 23:37.000
We're honest,

23:37.000 --> 23:39.000
but we're on the same panels,

23:39.000 --> 23:41.000
we're going to the same conferences,

23:41.000 --> 23:43.000
but we share the same bed,

23:43.000 --> 23:44.000
no, we don't.

23:44.000 --> 23:52.000
But I think it makes sense to appear together,

23:52.000 --> 23:55.000
and also to show that we really mean it,

23:55.000 --> 23:58.000
like we want to make it work together,

23:58.000 --> 24:03.000
and we are trustworthy in the combination.

24:03.000 --> 24:06.000
Yeah.

24:06.000 --> 24:07.000
Yeah.

24:07.000 --> 24:08.000
All right.

24:08.000 --> 24:11.000
So that's how we benefit.

24:11.000 --> 24:12.000
But of course,

24:12.000 --> 24:14.000
as we talked earlier already,

24:14.000 --> 24:15.000
like how the users benefit.

24:15.000 --> 24:17.000
So now I want to ask,

24:17.000 --> 24:18.000
what's next,

24:18.000 --> 24:20.000
where are these integrations going?

24:20.000 --> 24:22.000
Like you already mentioned Open Desk,

24:22.000 --> 24:25.000
but there are also one-on-one integrations,

24:25.000 --> 24:28.000
not other places where we collaborate.

24:28.000 --> 24:30.000
Yeah,

24:30.000 --> 24:33.000
how do Open Projects evolve their collaboration?

24:33.000 --> 24:36.000
And will we have more projects joining us?

24:36.000 --> 24:37.000
Like next year,

24:37.000 --> 24:38.000
if we want to do a panel art,

24:38.000 --> 24:39.000
20 party food,

24:39.000 --> 24:41.000
could join,

24:41.000 --> 24:43.000
what's next?

24:43.000 --> 24:44.000
Yeah,

24:44.000 --> 24:45.000
I have some microphone,

24:45.000 --> 24:47.000
I have a start.

24:47.000 --> 24:49.000
From,

24:49.000 --> 24:51.000
as I already said,

24:51.000 --> 24:53.000
we as identity management,

24:53.000 --> 24:54.000
we want to have integrations,

24:54.000 --> 24:59.000
and having integration is actually something

24:59.000 --> 25:01.000
that we are very open to,

25:01.000 --> 25:04.000
and we are currently in the face of initiating something

25:04.000 --> 25:07.000
that we call packaged integration.

25:07.000 --> 25:11.000
So that makes it the idea is to make it very easy

25:11.000 --> 25:13.000
to integrate some application

25:13.000 --> 25:15.000
with our identity management system.

25:15.000 --> 25:18.000
Because integration also always means,

25:18.000 --> 25:19.000
we need some configuration.

25:19.000 --> 25:21.000
You need to create a trust.

25:21.000 --> 25:23.000
We already had that in other talks today,

25:23.000 --> 25:26.000
which is very relevant and was very interesting.

25:26.000 --> 25:30.000
And we wanted to make that as easy as possible,

25:30.000 --> 25:35.000
so that not only environments where our technicians

25:35.000 --> 25:39.000
are available can have these integrations,

25:39.000 --> 25:42.000
but everybody should be able to have that.

25:42.000 --> 25:44.000
Because otherwise,

25:44.000 --> 25:47.000
the whole story doesn't fit.

25:51.000 --> 25:52.000
For me,

25:52.000 --> 25:53.000
yes, of course,

25:53.000 --> 25:55.000
we wanted to create with more applications.

25:56.000 --> 25:58.000
Because of the reason that I just said,

25:58.000 --> 26:00.000
to join forces,

26:00.000 --> 26:03.000
and to line up.

26:03.000 --> 26:06.000
But the problem here that I see is,

26:06.000 --> 26:09.000
we need to take all the basics first.

26:09.000 --> 26:12.000
Just from the technical perspective,

26:12.000 --> 26:15.000
how to integrate into a single sign on,

26:15.000 --> 26:17.000
and then really have a single sign on experience,

26:17.000 --> 26:19.000
where the user doesn't need to know.

26:19.000 --> 26:20.000
Now I'm next cloud.

26:20.000 --> 26:22.000
Now I'm in XViki.

26:22.000 --> 26:24.000
New users don't care.

26:24.000 --> 26:25.000
I want to think that like,

26:25.000 --> 26:27.000
okay, if I count in this application or that application,

26:27.000 --> 26:29.000
they expect one experience,

26:29.000 --> 26:30.000
they're looking somewhere,

26:30.000 --> 26:32.000
and then they can work.

26:32.000 --> 26:34.000
And for this to be able to work,

26:34.000 --> 26:39.000
we need to have quite a lot of basics of technology available

26:39.000 --> 26:43.000
to make this user session really be seamless

26:43.000 --> 26:45.000
between the applications.

26:45.000 --> 26:49.000
And when I look around in our current software solutions,

26:49.000 --> 26:51.000
everyone has implemented something,

26:51.000 --> 26:53.000
some part of it.

26:53.000 --> 26:54.000
Right?

26:54.000 --> 26:56.000
And that makes it really, really hard

26:56.000 --> 26:59.000
to really get the first level of integration done.

26:59.000 --> 27:01.000
And if we all together would agree

27:01.000 --> 27:07.000
in a couple of open standards and implement them

27:07.000 --> 27:10.000
to agree that it's decent enough.

27:10.000 --> 27:11.000
Let's say,

27:11.000 --> 27:15.000
our IDC token exchange scheme for the user provisioning.

27:15.000 --> 27:17.000
If we can agree to these ones,

27:17.000 --> 27:20.000
then the second integration would be so much cheaper,

27:20.000 --> 27:23.000
and we can focus really on really the use cases

27:23.000 --> 27:26.000
that these two applications together make.

27:26.000 --> 27:28.000
So this is my call for,

27:28.000 --> 27:31.000
let's synchronize more on the standards

27:31.000 --> 27:34.000
and spend the time of it.

27:34.000 --> 27:36.000
So spend money on that,

27:36.000 --> 27:38.000
and then the next integration will be so much easier,

27:38.000 --> 27:40.000
and we can focus on the real fun parts.

27:40.000 --> 27:42.000
So you're saying there are technical,

27:42.000 --> 27:44.000
there's a technical layer to be built

27:44.000 --> 27:47.000
to enable more integration between different open software projects.

27:47.000 --> 27:49.000
Yes, let's be honest,

27:49.000 --> 27:51.000
integrations they sound really, really reasonable,

27:51.000 --> 27:53.000
but they are very, very hard to implement.

27:53.000 --> 27:56.000
You have a user living having lifecycle on one side,

27:56.000 --> 27:58.000
a user having lifecycle on the different side,

27:58.000 --> 28:00.000
then the one application in that version

28:00.000 --> 28:02.000
is updating the other one is not.

28:02.000 --> 28:05.000
How do you make that all work together at the same time?

28:05.000 --> 28:07.000
Integrations are hard business.

28:07.000 --> 28:11.000
And we need to be having standards

28:11.000 --> 28:12.000
like checking for,

28:12.000 --> 28:14.000
I don't know, what version is installed?

28:14.000 --> 28:16.000
Is the connection up and running?

28:16.000 --> 28:17.000
You have, I don't know,

28:17.000 --> 28:18.000
how do we do it?

28:18.000 --> 28:20.000
We're talking up data and so on.

28:20.000 --> 28:21.000
Very technically,

28:21.000 --> 28:24.000
it is so much easier for software providers.

28:24.000 --> 28:26.000
I do my own thing,

28:26.000 --> 28:28.000
I have it under control,

28:28.000 --> 28:29.000
so much cheaper,

28:29.000 --> 28:31.000
I have a new feature that I can present,

28:31.000 --> 28:33.000
but integrations are hard.

28:33.000 --> 28:37.000
And so if we agree to some standards,

28:37.000 --> 28:39.000
it might be to put make it significantly easier.

28:39.000 --> 28:41.000
And initiative like,

28:41.000 --> 28:43.000
let's say,

28:43.000 --> 28:47.000
open desk and also the next cloud hub idea,

28:47.000 --> 28:49.000
is also helping to,

28:49.000 --> 28:50.000
you know,

28:50.000 --> 28:52.000
or could potentially create standards

28:52.000 --> 28:55.000
if those platforms push for it.

28:55.000 --> 28:56.000
If they ask,

28:56.000 --> 28:59.000
hey, our way is to do the scheme way.

28:59.000 --> 29:00.000
You can mention.

29:00.000 --> 29:03.000
If our way is the scheme way to provision users,

29:03.000 --> 29:06.000
well, then next time it's much easier to have it.

29:06.000 --> 29:09.000
If those platforms that do the user provisioning,

29:09.000 --> 29:12.000
use that one and really promote it,

29:12.000 --> 29:15.000
then every other vendor would follow and implement it.

29:15.000 --> 29:16.000
So,

29:16.000 --> 29:21.000
I really would like to use that energy to pitch that idea.

29:25.000 --> 29:27.000
I mean, if I got your question initially right,

29:27.000 --> 29:28.000
and you ask,

29:28.000 --> 29:29.000
what will be the next integration?

29:29.000 --> 29:31.000
Who will sit here maybe next year?

29:31.000 --> 29:32.000
And to be honest,

29:32.000 --> 29:33.000
I can answer the question.

29:33.000 --> 29:34.000
I have no clue.

29:34.000 --> 29:36.000
The only thing I can say is,

29:36.000 --> 29:39.000
we are really open to integrations.

29:39.000 --> 29:40.000
So, I will basically say,

29:40.000 --> 29:42.000
I'm you decide which integrations is there,

29:42.000 --> 29:44.000
and all the people are not in the room,

29:44.000 --> 29:46.000
but we are using our software.

29:46.000 --> 29:48.000
So, it's you who decide,

29:48.000 --> 29:50.000
and when you have your favorite software,

29:50.000 --> 29:51.000
you ask yourself,

29:51.000 --> 29:52.000
why is it not integrated?

29:52.000 --> 29:54.000
I mean, as I said at the beginning,

29:54.000 --> 29:55.000
for some of the next cloud,

29:55.000 --> 29:59.000
we're really putting a lot of focus on being some kind of platform

29:59.000 --> 30:01.000
where people can innovate and top of it.

30:01.000 --> 30:03.000
So, we make sure that a lot of APIs are there,

30:03.000 --> 30:04.000
well documented.

30:04.000 --> 30:05.000
Even in the company,

30:05.000 --> 30:06.000
we have a complete team,

30:06.000 --> 30:08.000
where focus on the integrations and work,

30:08.000 --> 30:10.000
together with communities with other companies

30:10.000 --> 30:12.000
to build this integrations.

30:12.000 --> 30:14.000
What comes out of us is,

30:14.000 --> 30:15.000
then, always the question,

30:15.000 --> 30:16.000
what the users want,

30:16.000 --> 30:18.000
and, as far as you had,

30:18.000 --> 30:19.000
first of them, of course,

30:19.000 --> 30:21.000
I'm sure also a lot of developers sitting in the room,

30:21.000 --> 30:22.000
what developers want,

30:22.000 --> 30:23.000
and what they are equal to implement,

30:23.000 --> 30:25.000
and that will be there at the end,

30:25.000 --> 30:27.000
and we land your talk about,

30:27.000 --> 30:29.000
a lot about the technical challenge,

30:29.000 --> 30:30.000
which I complete agreed,

30:30.000 --> 30:31.000
I mean, that's the,

30:31.000 --> 30:33.000
they need to be solved in order to have

30:33.000 --> 30:35.000
this good integration at the end of the day.

30:35.000 --> 30:36.000
But then again,

30:36.000 --> 30:37.000
I have to come back,

30:37.000 --> 30:39.000
sorry if I stress the term to often today,

30:39.000 --> 30:40.000
but we are at first them,

30:40.000 --> 30:41.000
that's again,

30:41.000 --> 30:42.000
the power of open source, right?

30:42.000 --> 30:45.000
It's not something a black box or something

30:45.000 --> 30:46.000
where you look at the APIs,

30:46.000 --> 30:47.000
and it's not there,

30:47.000 --> 30:48.000
you are lost.

30:48.000 --> 30:49.000
If something is missing,

30:49.000 --> 30:51.000
if you want to integrate your favorite product,

30:51.000 --> 30:53.000
or your favorite software project,

30:53.000 --> 30:55.000
or maybe your own project,

30:55.000 --> 30:57.000
and you try to integrate,

30:57.000 --> 30:59.000
you find out there's an API missing,

30:59.000 --> 31:01.000
just talk to us or to open project,

31:01.000 --> 31:02.000
or to an invention or to X-Wiki,

31:02.000 --> 31:04.000
and I'm sure we are all happy

31:04.000 --> 31:06.000
to look at what's missing in the APIs,

31:06.000 --> 31:08.000
and enhance the API so at it,

31:08.000 --> 31:10.000
that's how our community works, right?

31:10.000 --> 31:12.000
Or you do what we learned at,

31:12.000 --> 31:14.000
until they themselves are next flat.

31:14.000 --> 31:17.000
So there is one thing you mentioned,

31:17.000 --> 31:18.000
open centers,

31:18.000 --> 31:20.000
but there is actually a question,

31:20.000 --> 31:22.000
why don't we have so many,

31:22.000 --> 31:24.000
many integrations between open source software,

31:24.000 --> 31:26.000
and one of the thing is that

31:26.000 --> 31:30.000
every smaller company is very pressured

31:30.000 --> 31:32.000
to integrate with the big leaders,

31:32.000 --> 31:34.000
like when you go at the customer,

31:34.000 --> 31:35.000
they tell you,

31:35.000 --> 31:36.000
oh, you have a connector to Google,

31:36.000 --> 31:38.000
you have a connector to Microsoft,

31:38.000 --> 31:40.000
do you have this?

31:40.000 --> 31:42.000
So, and then the question is,

31:42.000 --> 31:43.000
okay, why not standards?

31:43.000 --> 31:45.000
Why they're not more standards?

31:45.000 --> 31:46.000
Well, same thing,

31:46.000 --> 31:47.000
like whatever,

31:47.000 --> 31:49.000
if the standard is not implemented

31:49.000 --> 31:50.000
by one of these leaders,

31:50.000 --> 31:51.000
it's a dead standard.

31:51.000 --> 31:53.000
I've known open source show,

31:53.000 --> 31:54.000
which was a very interesting standard

31:54.000 --> 31:57.000
to integrate widgets between applications.

31:57.000 --> 31:58.000
It was,

31:58.000 --> 32:00.000
it was IBM launching it

32:01.000 --> 32:03.000
with you had a classian doing it.

32:03.000 --> 32:06.000
We did some prototypes with open source show,

32:06.000 --> 32:08.000
and Microsoft didn't implement it.

32:08.000 --> 32:09.000
It was dead,

32:09.000 --> 32:10.000
completely dead.

32:10.000 --> 32:13.000
Microsoft was not allowing an open social widget,

32:13.000 --> 32:15.000
nobody would build open social widgets.

32:15.000 --> 32:16.000
So, you know,

32:16.000 --> 32:17.000
the standards are great,

32:17.000 --> 32:20.000
but if you don't push or make it mandatory

32:20.000 --> 32:23.000
for the big companies that are leading the market

32:23.000 --> 32:24.000
that are closed,

32:24.000 --> 32:26.000
closed monopolist or monopolist,

32:26.000 --> 32:28.000
if you don't force them to implement them,

32:28.000 --> 32:31.000
you're that open IDC has been implemented,

32:31.000 --> 32:33.000
has been implemented by large providers,

32:33.000 --> 32:36.000
and it's very easy for everybody to integrate.

32:36.000 --> 32:37.000
You do it,

32:37.000 --> 32:38.000
it's very interesting,

32:38.000 --> 32:39.000
you're going to do it for the large providers,

32:39.000 --> 32:42.000
and it's going to work for the smaller integration.

32:42.000 --> 32:43.000
So, that's one aspect.

32:43.000 --> 32:44.000
And now,

32:44.000 --> 32:45.000
on what's next,

32:45.000 --> 32:47.000
I have a very specific item,

32:47.000 --> 32:49.000
I want to pitch my own idea,

32:49.000 --> 32:51.000
that goes beyond the standards and thing,

32:51.000 --> 32:54.000
and what I want to pitch is the moderity idea.

32:54.000 --> 32:55.000
And I mean,

32:55.000 --> 32:57.000
this is something we actually,

32:57.000 --> 32:58.000
if you look at our presentation,

32:58.000 --> 33:00.000
we have about crystal,

33:00.000 --> 33:02.000
because this is one of the big reasons

33:02.000 --> 33:04.000
we decided to push on,

33:04.000 --> 33:06.000
we decided to push out the tricky for crystal,

33:06.000 --> 33:08.000
is the idea that actually,

33:08.000 --> 33:09.000
software should be,

33:09.000 --> 33:11.000
we should rebuild software to be way more modular.

33:11.000 --> 33:13.000
Maybe you can quickly pitch crystal.

33:13.000 --> 33:14.000
Yeah.

33:14.000 --> 33:16.000
So, crystal is new Wiki UI,

33:16.000 --> 33:19.000
that we can switch back ends,

33:19.000 --> 33:21.000
switch UI designs,

33:21.000 --> 33:23.000
so you could switch UI frameworks,

33:23.000 --> 33:26.000
you can modify part of the features,

33:26.000 --> 33:27.000
so basically,

33:27.000 --> 33:30.000
and it could be embedded as a web application

33:30.000 --> 33:31.000
into another.

33:31.000 --> 33:32.000
So, it's been made,

33:32.000 --> 33:35.000
so that it doesn't run as a separate.

33:35.000 --> 33:38.000
It won't be able to only run as its own web page,

33:38.000 --> 33:40.000
but it could run as a module

33:40.000 --> 33:42.000
inside another application at the same time.

33:42.000 --> 33:43.000
And actually,

33:43.000 --> 33:44.000
one of this idea,

33:44.000 --> 33:47.000
I don't want to take the whole credit for actually saying

33:47.000 --> 33:48.000
that we should do that,

33:48.000 --> 33:52.000
but I listened to a talk by the GTI founder,

33:52.000 --> 33:53.000
Emil,

33:53.000 --> 33:55.000
I think it's two years ago,

33:55.000 --> 33:56.000
or three years ago,

33:56.000 --> 33:58.000
I think it was remote for them.

33:58.000 --> 33:59.000
And basically,

33:59.000 --> 34:01.000
he pitched this modularity idea

34:01.000 --> 34:03.000
as one of the future of tech,

34:03.000 --> 34:06.000
and I really bought into that idea,

34:06.000 --> 34:09.000
is that actually the value of open source

34:09.000 --> 34:11.000
is modularity and reuse,

34:11.000 --> 34:13.000
and so even,

34:13.000 --> 34:15.000
and so we need at the application level.

34:15.000 --> 34:17.000
So, I think this value of modularity

34:17.000 --> 34:20.000
exists everywhere in the open source world

34:20.000 --> 34:21.000
at the library level.

34:21.000 --> 34:23.000
So, if we take,

34:24.000 --> 34:26.000
we've got the price,

34:26.000 --> 34:28.000
the open source of word,

34:28.000 --> 34:29.000
first day.

34:29.000 --> 34:30.000
Actually,

34:30.000 --> 34:32.000
the biggest value of curl is not curl.

34:32.000 --> 34:33.000
It's lip curl.

34:33.000 --> 34:36.000
The library that is embedded everywhere

34:36.000 --> 34:37.000
in every software.

34:37.000 --> 34:39.000
And he built curl,

34:39.000 --> 34:41.000
but he built lip curl.

34:41.000 --> 34:44.000
And he gave to other people

34:44.000 --> 34:46.000
the same features that he gives

34:46.000 --> 34:47.000
in the curl command line

34:47.000 --> 34:49.000
that we all use on our Linux computer,

34:49.000 --> 34:51.000
but he gave it to all the people

34:51.000 --> 34:52.000
who are good,

34:52.000 --> 34:55.000
a good way to do HTTP

34:55.000 --> 34:56.000
in their software.

34:56.000 --> 34:57.000
And I think this is the thing,

34:57.000 --> 34:58.000
and actually,

34:58.000 --> 35:00.000
JTC is a bit built with that with

35:00.000 --> 35:02.000
JCUI and lip,

35:02.000 --> 35:03.000
lip,

35:03.000 --> 35:06.000
it doesn't mean that it's going to be successful.

35:06.000 --> 35:07.000
Maybe there's another library

35:07.000 --> 35:08.000
that's going to be better

35:08.000 --> 35:10.000
for doing video conferencing

35:10.000 --> 35:11.000
and things like that.

35:11.000 --> 35:12.000
But I think,

35:12.000 --> 35:13.000
and I want,

35:13.000 --> 35:15.000
my idea is that we need to push this

35:15.000 --> 35:16.000
at the further level,

35:16.000 --> 35:18.000
not only at the library level,

35:18.000 --> 35:20.000
where you can just talk protocols

35:20.000 --> 35:21.000
and stuff like that,

35:21.000 --> 35:22.000
but actually,

35:22.000 --> 35:24.000
you can talk to a UI.

35:24.000 --> 35:26.000
So the UI should be

35:26.000 --> 35:27.000
moderate,

35:27.000 --> 35:30.000
and not only the technical capacity,

35:30.000 --> 35:32.000
and that's actually what we're trying to do

35:32.000 --> 35:33.000
is crystal,

35:33.000 --> 35:35.000
where the UI should be embeddable,

35:35.000 --> 35:36.000
and actually,

35:36.000 --> 35:38.000
we can change the design system,

35:38.000 --> 35:40.000
and so if we want to do

35:40.000 --> 35:41.000
a better integration with

35:41.000 --> 35:42.000
the next cloud,

35:42.000 --> 35:45.000
we implement the next cloud design system

35:45.000 --> 35:46.000
in crystal,

35:46.000 --> 35:48.000
and basically the look of crystal

35:48.000 --> 35:50.000
is the same look as the whole next cloud suit,

35:50.000 --> 35:51.000
sweet.

35:51.000 --> 35:54.000
And so if we start building the application

35:54.000 --> 35:55.000
with that in mind,

35:55.000 --> 35:57.000
we're going to have,

35:57.000 --> 35:59.000
we're going to go way further

35:59.000 --> 36:02.000
in terms of integration in the future.

36:02.000 --> 36:04.000
So I think it's a long-term thing.

36:04.000 --> 36:05.000
It's not going to happen overnight.

36:05.000 --> 36:07.000
I think we need to think about

36:07.000 --> 36:09.000
that level of modularity

36:09.000 --> 36:11.000
when we build the next generations

36:11.000 --> 36:13.000
of the open source application.

36:13.000 --> 36:16.000
So if you're building new application,

36:16.000 --> 36:18.000
well, think really modular

36:18.000 --> 36:19.000
and your application,

36:19.000 --> 36:21.000
think embeddable,

36:21.000 --> 36:25.000
and think to have APIs to connect them.

36:25.000 --> 36:29.000
That's a pretty big picture, you understand?

36:29.000 --> 36:33.000
Maybe I could respond to the first part of the open standard part,

36:33.000 --> 36:35.000
because I think it's really interesting,

36:35.000 --> 36:36.000
and also,

36:36.000 --> 36:38.000
topic you can discuss a lot to be honest,

36:38.000 --> 36:40.000
because I would be a bit more optimistic

36:40.000 --> 36:42.000
than you are to be honest,

36:42.000 --> 36:44.000
because in the beginning,

36:44.000 --> 36:46.000
all of the previous comments you mentioned,

36:46.000 --> 36:48.000
as a bad example,

36:48.000 --> 36:50.000
Google Talk,

36:50.000 --> 36:52.000
and it's like,

36:52.000 --> 36:53.000
where they picked,

36:53.000 --> 36:55.000
where they took some open standard,

36:55.000 --> 36:56.000
and then extended it,

36:56.000 --> 36:58.000
and at some point they no longer used it.

36:58.000 --> 37:00.000
So that's always a big dangerous.

37:00.000 --> 37:01.000
And if you look at the,

37:01.000 --> 37:03.000
the opposite side of our room,

37:03.000 --> 37:05.000
there's the master down and boost at the moment.

37:05.000 --> 37:07.000
There's a lot of discussion at the moment

37:07.000 --> 37:11.000
in the whole social networking area,

37:11.000 --> 37:14.000
which should be allowing threats

37:14.000 --> 37:17.000
to implement the activity path API.

37:17.000 --> 37:18.000
Some people welcome it,

37:18.000 --> 37:19.000
they say,

37:19.000 --> 37:20.000
yeah, that's a really big step,

37:20.000 --> 37:22.000
to have social networking,

37:22.000 --> 37:25.000
really big federation becoming big everybody will do it,

37:25.000 --> 37:27.000
and other fear that threats do to the protocol

37:27.000 --> 37:29.000
and to master down,

37:29.000 --> 37:30.000
what Google did to,

37:30.000 --> 37:31.000
to EXMPP,

37:31.000 --> 37:35.000
or select it with their IRC integration at the end of the day.

37:35.000 --> 37:38.000
So that's always the challenge we facing here,

37:38.000 --> 37:39.000
and I would say,

37:39.000 --> 37:42.000
if you look how many people,

37:42.000 --> 37:44.000
how many companies these days using open source

37:44.000 --> 37:45.000
and free software,

37:45.000 --> 37:47.000
I think no company can live without open source.

37:47.000 --> 37:50.000
So I think we can be a bit more,

37:50.000 --> 37:55.000
more positive and more self-confident

37:55.000 --> 37:56.000
by ourselves,

37:56.000 --> 37:57.000
and say,

37:57.000 --> 37:59.000
if we have a good open standard,

37:59.000 --> 38:01.000
where we in the open source world integrate,

38:01.000 --> 38:05.000
there's always no way that a big company can get around.

38:05.000 --> 38:07.000
It doesn't matter if Google,

38:07.000 --> 38:09.000
Microsoft, whoever implements into first place,

38:09.000 --> 38:11.000
and let's be a bit more self-confident

38:11.000 --> 38:13.000
would be my opinion to open standards.

38:13.000 --> 38:14.000
These days,

38:14.000 --> 38:17.000
I think we can be more self-confident.

38:17.000 --> 38:20.000
Yeah, I think that brings me a bit to the next point,

38:20.000 --> 38:21.000
I want to ask,

38:21.000 --> 38:23.000
what are the blockers here,

38:23.000 --> 38:26.000
because you talk a little bit about their standards.

38:26.000 --> 38:27.000
And you said,

38:27.000 --> 38:29.000
there's a technical blocker,

38:29.000 --> 38:32.000
a certain technology we need to integrate,

38:32.000 --> 38:38.000
about the different ways of making things more modular.

38:38.000 --> 38:42.000
How do you think about these things?

38:42.000 --> 38:46.000
Yeah, I think they have been mentioned already.

38:46.000 --> 38:52.000
I think a good integration comes with an open standard,

38:52.000 --> 38:53.000
because then it's flexible,

38:53.000 --> 38:57.000
then it's not a one-way integration between exactly two components,

38:57.000 --> 38:59.000
but it's something that works with several components,

38:59.000 --> 39:01.000
and it can scale.

39:01.000 --> 39:05.000
So if we agree on open standards,

39:05.000 --> 39:09.000
that is the key for a good integration landscape.

39:09.000 --> 39:12.000
But there are needs,

39:12.000 --> 39:16.000
one of the needs is just being open isn't enough.

39:16.000 --> 39:18.000
The standard needs to be implemented.

39:18.000 --> 39:21.000
Ideally, there are already lips that implemented,

39:21.000 --> 39:23.000
and that can be used,

39:23.000 --> 39:26.000
so it's easy to adopt to that standard,

39:26.000 --> 39:30.000
and there needs to be an adoption rate.

39:30.000 --> 39:31.000
Let's put it that way.

39:31.000 --> 39:33.000
If the big players do it,

39:33.000 --> 39:35.000
it's helpful, but risky,

39:35.000 --> 39:38.000
but we need to agree on standards.

39:38.000 --> 39:42.000
And that's something that brings

39:42.000 --> 39:46.000
in a lot of communication and interaction and agreements

39:46.000 --> 39:48.000
between many people,

39:48.000 --> 39:51.000
and we see in the history,

39:51.000 --> 39:55.000
and maybe everybody has this XKCD comic in mind,

39:55.000 --> 39:59.000
where the other standards are not well enough,

39:59.000 --> 40:01.000
I'd define 11's one,

40:01.000 --> 40:03.000
and then we have 11 incompatibles standards.

40:03.000 --> 40:05.000
That needs to be avoided.

40:05.000 --> 40:07.000
So that's the challenge here.

40:07.000 --> 40:09.000
Communication, openness,

40:09.000 --> 40:11.000
talk with each other,

40:11.000 --> 40:14.000
and agree on something good.

40:14.000 --> 40:18.000
Yeah, somehow my mind drifted off into a different area,

40:18.000 --> 40:20.000
and that is,

40:20.000 --> 40:24.000
like, okay, let's say we have the technical integration,

40:24.000 --> 40:26.000
like the software can work together.

40:26.000 --> 40:28.000
Then we have the question that you asked,

40:28.000 --> 40:31.000
like two or three rounds before,

40:31.000 --> 40:34.000
but do our business models integrate.

40:34.000 --> 40:37.000
So like do our pricing scheme,

40:37.000 --> 40:39.000
like at the end,

40:39.000 --> 40:41.000
we have organizations with a company in the background,

40:41.000 --> 40:45.000
and we also have the goal to earn money.

40:45.000 --> 40:48.000
So then are they compatible?

40:48.000 --> 40:50.000
Like if, for example, open product,

40:50.000 --> 40:53.000
currently has a freight,

40:53.000 --> 40:54.000
almost a flat rate model,

40:54.000 --> 40:56.000
not like after 250 users,

40:56.000 --> 40:58.000
then it's a flat rate, unlimited.

40:58.000 --> 41:01.000
And it's not compatible with next cloud,

41:01.000 --> 41:02.000
right?

41:02.000 --> 41:04.000
Well, you don't have this unlimited.

41:04.000 --> 41:06.000
That's barely start at 250.

41:06.000 --> 41:10.000
Yeah.

41:10.000 --> 41:12.000
It also makes sense,

41:12.000 --> 41:14.000
depending where you start from,

41:14.000 --> 41:15.000
where the business grows from,

41:15.000 --> 41:18.000
but that makes also sometimes the integration harder,

41:18.000 --> 41:20.000
to meet and to find each other.

41:20.000 --> 41:22.000
And yeah, that's also a learning curve,

41:22.000 --> 41:24.000
but we need to take there,

41:24.000 --> 41:26.000
and to learn and experience.

41:26.000 --> 41:28.000
That's, but then we can really,

41:28.000 --> 41:30.000
if we align also on the business side,

41:30.000 --> 41:33.000
then we can build this,

41:33.000 --> 41:35.000
this engine that makes,

41:35.000 --> 41:37.000
make things grow.

41:37.000 --> 41:39.000
Yeah, just,

41:39.000 --> 41:42.000
it's not only the business model,

41:42.000 --> 41:44.000
I think there was another one that I just forgot,

41:44.000 --> 41:46.000
but maybe you guys remember.

41:46.000 --> 41:48.000
How can we actually write that?

41:48.000 --> 41:53.000
Yeah, so you were asking whether the biggest blockers,

41:53.000 --> 41:57.000
so I think time and money is probably the biggest blocker I see,

41:57.000 --> 42:00.000
because in the end,

42:00.000 --> 42:04.000
we get more and more incentives to actually do it,

42:04.000 --> 42:08.000
so then it's a question of priorities in the roadmap,

42:08.000 --> 42:11.000
and then it's limited by the revenue

42:11.000 --> 42:13.000
that all our companies are doing,

42:13.000 --> 42:16.000
all the companies and all the people that do open source are doing.

42:16.000 --> 42:18.000
I suggested, for example,

42:18.000 --> 42:21.000
for NGI to fund specifically integrations,

42:21.000 --> 42:24.000
because I felt that integrations are a bit,

42:24.000 --> 42:27.000
the stuff that is left aside,

42:27.000 --> 42:30.000
because it's not asked directly by the client.

42:30.000 --> 42:32.000
They expect them basically,

42:32.000 --> 42:34.000
but they don't really go and come and say,

42:34.000 --> 42:36.000
I'm gonna fund this in your roadmap,

42:36.000 --> 42:39.000
or I want this specific integration,

42:39.000 --> 42:42.000
because when it's Microsoft that they have,

42:42.000 --> 42:43.000
they will ask you to fund the,

42:43.000 --> 42:45.000
they will fund the Microsoft integration,

42:45.000 --> 42:50.000
not the one with the tool that they might use in two years.

42:50.000 --> 42:54.000
So unless they actually have the tools at the same time

42:54.000 --> 42:58.000
in the company, it's pretty rare that they would fund the integration.

42:58.000 --> 43:00.000
So, and standard is the same thing.

43:00.000 --> 43:05.000
Nobody, I mean, the companies never fund standards.

43:05.000 --> 43:09.000
I never seen that really, or maybe as a side thing.

43:09.000 --> 43:12.000
So, I mean, I think NGI does a good job,

43:12.000 --> 43:15.000
actually funding people that work on standards,

43:15.000 --> 43:17.000
or library with standards with protocols

43:17.000 --> 43:20.000
and things like that, so that's actually great.

43:20.000 --> 43:22.000
I think we should thank them for that a lot,

43:22.000 --> 43:23.000
because that's really important.

43:23.000 --> 43:25.000
We need more protocols, so I just want to be clear.

43:25.000 --> 43:27.000
I'm a big believer in standards.

43:27.000 --> 43:29.000
I just have a few bad experiences,

43:29.000 --> 43:32.000
for example, I can give another bad experiences.

43:32.000 --> 43:34.000
I participated to Wiki Creole,

43:34.000 --> 43:36.000
which is a common Wiki language.

43:36.000 --> 43:38.000
We had like six,

43:38.000 --> 43:41.000
there was a conference in like 15 years ago,

43:41.000 --> 43:42.000
Wiki Sim.

43:42.000 --> 43:44.000
And all the people that were making Wiki's,

43:44.000 --> 43:46.000
and lots of them were open source, actually.

43:46.000 --> 43:47.000
I think mostly open source,

43:47.000 --> 43:50.000
there was, I don't think the proprietary Wiki's came there.

43:50.000 --> 43:53.000
And we talked about Wiki syntax,

43:53.000 --> 43:56.000
and you know, because there's so many Wiki syntaxes.

43:56.000 --> 43:59.000
And we actually implemented Wiki Creole.

43:59.000 --> 44:02.000
So it was packed by the group of people.

44:02.000 --> 44:05.000
We implemented it, it was implemented by one or two others.

44:05.000 --> 44:08.000
And the big, the, at last year,

44:08.000 --> 44:10.000
obviously didn't implement it.

44:10.000 --> 44:13.000
And many others didn't implement it.

44:13.000 --> 44:16.000
And then one day, Markdown came up.

44:16.000 --> 44:18.000
And frankly, if you ask me,

44:18.000 --> 44:22.000
Wiki Creole was a much better Wiki syntax standard.

44:22.000 --> 44:23.000
Then Markdown is.

44:23.000 --> 44:25.000
Markdown has a lot of technical deficiencies.

44:25.000 --> 44:28.000
We live with them now in our products.

44:28.000 --> 44:30.000
It has a lot of technical deficiencies,

44:30.000 --> 44:32.000
because it's a, it's a defective standard,

44:32.000 --> 44:33.000
and not at all,

44:33.000 --> 44:36.000
a standard that people have discussed or thought about

44:36.000 --> 44:38.000
with a bit of science,

44:38.000 --> 44:42.000
to, to, to make it the right standard.

44:42.000 --> 44:46.000
So, and now Markdown is kind of a defective standard.

44:46.000 --> 44:50.000
So, so, so, so you have these issues.

44:50.000 --> 44:52.000
So I love standards, but there, there,

44:52.000 --> 44:56.000
you also have a niche in the whole process of standard that is not easy.

44:56.000 --> 44:59.000
And so we should, we should fund these standards more and more.

44:59.000 --> 45:01.000
And that's a bit, my, my belief.

45:01.000 --> 45:04.000
I think on the integrations between the companies,

45:04.000 --> 45:06.000
I, I think, maybe one limitation is,

45:06.000 --> 45:08.000
in our space, specifically,

45:08.000 --> 45:10.000
with the collaborations spaces.

45:10.000 --> 45:14.000
Indeed, we're against companies that are just lining up everything together.

45:14.000 --> 45:15.000
Well, I mean, let's be clear,

45:15.000 --> 45:18.000
Markdown is doing dumping and, and, and,

45:18.000 --> 45:19.000
and, and, uh,

45:19.000 --> 45:21.000
like, they sell you, I mean,

45:21.000 --> 45:24.000
I've seen prices of, of the Microsoft stack,

45:24.000 --> 45:26.000
where you had, uh,

45:26.000 --> 45:28.000
office with, uh,

45:28.000 --> 45:30.000
the Wiki waste project management,

45:30.000 --> 45:32.000
that was actually zero.

45:33.000 --> 45:36.000
Then just off, then, uh,

45:36.000 --> 45:38.000
uh, then, then just office.

45:38.000 --> 45:41.000
So, actually, it was cheaper to have all the other tools,

45:41.000 --> 45:44.000
uh, then not have them, uh,

45:44.000 --> 45:46.000
which makes absolutely no sense.

45:46.000 --> 45:47.000
So, it's, I mean, it's a,

45:47.000 --> 45:49.000
it's a bundling strategy,

45:49.000 --> 45:51.000
they dominate with office,

45:51.000 --> 45:53.000
uh, and, and so basically,

45:53.000 --> 45:54.000
they give for free all the rest.

45:54.000 --> 45:57.000
And so we, we live with that, that type of competition,

45:57.000 --> 45:59.000
where we have to find, okay,

45:59.000 --> 46:01.000
how do we, how can we make a whole stack,

46:02.000 --> 46:04.000
that, that maybe larger companies can,

46:04.000 --> 46:05.000
can decide to use,

46:05.000 --> 46:06.000
but on the technical side,

46:06.000 --> 46:07.000
I think it's,

46:07.000 --> 46:09.000
if we, if we get a bit more money of,

46:09.000 --> 46:10.000
or capacity,

46:10.000 --> 46:12.000
we'll end up doing all these integrations,

46:12.000 --> 46:13.000
and, uh,

46:13.000 --> 46:15.000
and if we can have standards to do them,

46:15.000 --> 46:16.000
that would help,

46:16.000 --> 46:18.000
but they're not always easy to do these standards,

46:18.000 --> 46:19.000
from a technical point of view, though,

46:19.000 --> 46:21.000
that makes the whole thing more costly.

46:21.000 --> 46:22.000
Yeah.

46:22.000 --> 46:24.000
But still, to get a stronger.

46:24.000 --> 46:25.000
Yeah.

46:25.000 --> 46:26.000
You're fine.

46:26.000 --> 46:27.000
Yeah.

46:27.000 --> 46:29.000
I just wanted to add on that,

46:29.000 --> 46:31.000
and give it a more positive note,

46:31.000 --> 46:33.000
and regarding standards,

46:33.000 --> 46:34.000
and so,

46:34.000 --> 46:36.000
and one thing is that there are many examples

46:36.000 --> 46:37.000
where open standards,

46:37.000 --> 46:38.000
uh,

46:38.000 --> 46:40.000
where the thing that everybody adopted to,

46:40.000 --> 46:41.000
if you look back in,

46:41.000 --> 46:42.000
in the history,

46:42.000 --> 46:43.000
like,

46:43.000 --> 46:44.000
uh,

46:44.000 --> 46:45.000
caberos,

46:45.000 --> 46:46.000
and LLAP, and actually P,

46:46.000 --> 46:47.000
and so,

46:47.000 --> 46:48.000
there are many open standards,

46:48.000 --> 46:49.000
that, uh,

46:49.000 --> 46:50.000
forced the big vendors to adopt them,

46:50.000 --> 46:51.000
that's,

46:51.000 --> 46:52.000
one thing,

46:52.000 --> 46:53.000
and the other thing,

46:53.000 --> 46:55.000
um,

46:55.000 --> 46:56.000
still,

46:56.000 --> 46:58.000
even if Microsoft doesn't build things,

46:58.000 --> 46:59.000
or the other big five,

46:59.000 --> 47:02.000
it makes sense for us to have open standards.

47:02.000 --> 47:03.000
So,

47:03.000 --> 47:04.000
there's no,

47:04.000 --> 47:05.000
in my point of view,

47:05.000 --> 47:07.000
there's no alternative to that,

47:07.000 --> 47:08.000
uh,

47:08.000 --> 47:09.000
even though,

47:09.000 --> 47:10.000
uh,

47:10.000 --> 47:12.000
the big five might not adopted,

47:12.000 --> 47:13.000
because,

47:13.000 --> 47:14.000
uh,

47:14.000 --> 47:15.000
we can only,

47:15.000 --> 47:16.000
uh,

47:16.000 --> 47:19.000
work together with these open standards.

47:19.000 --> 47:21.000
We shouldn't make things complicated.

47:21.000 --> 47:22.000
Right.

47:22.000 --> 47:24.000
Some of these problems have to be soft,

47:24.000 --> 47:25.000
and the days before,

47:25.000 --> 47:26.000
or for them,

47:26.000 --> 47:28.000
but more political people,

47:28.000 --> 47:29.000
and we then,

47:29.000 --> 47:31.000
we have to stick to code, of course, here.

47:31.000 --> 47:32.000
Yeah,

47:32.000 --> 47:33.000
that makes it all of sense.

47:33.000 --> 47:34.000
Hey,

47:34.000 --> 47:35.000
we have only,

47:35.000 --> 47:36.000
some minute left.

47:36.000 --> 47:37.000
I thought,

47:37.000 --> 47:40.000
maybe there are questions in the room,

47:40.000 --> 47:41.000
and,

47:41.000 --> 47:42.000
yeah,

47:42.000 --> 47:43.000
that could be interesting.

47:43.000 --> 47:44.000
Um,

47:44.000 --> 47:46.000
there's already one there.

47:46.000 --> 47:47.000
Yes.

47:47.000 --> 47:48.000
Uh,

47:48.000 --> 47:49.000
I,

47:49.000 --> 47:50.000
I,

47:50.000 --> 47:52.000
I,

47:52.000 --> 47:53.000
I,

47:53.000 --> 47:54.000
I,

47:54.000 --> 47:55.000
do,

47:55.000 --> 47:55.960
mother mother,

47:55.960 --> 47:56.240
uh,

47:56.240 --> 47:58.000
Lil' Ecce C4 and use a,

47:58.000 --> 47:59.000
a concept Wait,

47:59.000 --> 48:00.000
it,

48:00.000 --> 48:03.000
it sounds application with collaboration tools,

48:03.000 --> 48:07.400
so i scene that the race in the free open world

48:07.400 --> 48:08.000
啊,

48:08.000 --> 48:12.000
a lot of différence between the you cada,

48:12.000 --> 48:13.000
uh,

48:13.000 --> 48:14.000
uh,

48:14.000 --> 48:17.340
overourourourourourourourourourourourourourourourourourourourourourourourourourourourourourourourourourourourourourourourourourourourourourourourourourourourourourourourourourour

48:17.340 --> 48:20.000
It sounds application with collaboration tools.

48:20.000 --> 48:22.000
So aghhh i see that the race in the free open world,

48:22.000 --> 48:25.440
Another example, the other end is Fediveras.

48:25.440 --> 48:29.680
This is a control of collaboration is hedged in this sector.

48:29.680 --> 48:34.040
And from this important, when I see more

48:34.040 --> 48:39.560
than Microsoft and Google, that Elon Musk is buying

48:39.560 --> 48:40.720
a lot of things.

48:40.720 --> 48:46.560
And Elon Musk, in Ramani, if he financed the alternative

48:46.560 --> 48:47.600
for Dodd-Fland.

48:47.600 --> 48:48.880
So it's a real problem.

48:48.880 --> 48:53.880
Yeah, I don't, I mean, I don't think so.

48:53.880 --> 48:56.880
There wasn't much of a question in there.

48:56.880 --> 48:57.880
Yes.

48:57.880 --> 49:02.880
My question is to make better collaboration.

49:02.880 --> 49:04.880
It's a good game.

49:04.880 --> 49:05.880
Also good.

49:05.880 --> 49:07.880
Thanks for the encouragement.

49:07.880 --> 49:08.880
That's fair enough.

49:08.880 --> 49:09.880
Yes.

49:09.880 --> 49:10.880
Thank you.

49:10.880 --> 49:16.880
My question is, is not in the open source scene.

49:16.880 --> 49:20.880
The storytelling too much for technical.

49:20.880 --> 49:27.880
So if you say integration and so, it's really necessary.

49:27.880 --> 49:34.880
But why does user and people don't experience this?

49:34.880 --> 49:36.880
Various, they use basic.

49:36.880 --> 49:41.880
Where I can plug in and see the best management and see

49:41.880 --> 49:47.880
the time and office food, build with open source.

49:47.880 --> 49:51.880
With your, why do you not go into the room and plug this

49:51.880 --> 49:55.880
everything together and show this very easy to people?

49:55.880 --> 49:59.880
So then we don't need the marketing from Microsoft.

49:59.880 --> 50:06.880
Instead of making things better and better, just explain

50:06.880 --> 50:10.880
and storytelling more, the thing that's already here.

50:10.880 --> 50:12.880
You're messing a good app store.

50:12.880 --> 50:14.880
Is that a good summary?

50:14.880 --> 50:15.880
Yes.

50:15.880 --> 50:16.880
Yes.

50:16.880 --> 50:18.880
So where's the app store?

50:18.880 --> 50:20.880
I mean, I know you have an answer.

50:20.880 --> 50:24.880
Let me use your system.

50:24.880 --> 50:28.880
First, I think there is already a lot of good integrations.

50:28.880 --> 50:29.880
So we have a lot.

50:29.880 --> 50:34.880
But yeah, advertising what exists and that we show and

50:34.880 --> 50:38.880
evangelize basically the world with open source.

50:38.880 --> 50:40.880
Yeah, but we do it.

50:40.880 --> 50:44.880
We have all marketing and sales teams and that do it.

50:44.880 --> 50:48.880
So we do it all the time, but with our limited capacity.

50:48.880 --> 50:52.880
Actually, that's where the community does help us a lot and can help us a lot

50:52.880 --> 50:54.880
even more.

50:54.880 --> 50:59.880
I mean, I'm a strong believer that all our users are best marketing

50:59.880 --> 51:02.880
and best demonstrator.

51:02.880 --> 51:07.880
I mean, our job is supposedly to be coders and build the applications.

51:07.880 --> 51:11.880
And actually other people can talk about what we do.

51:11.880 --> 51:13.880
We're very, and we're super happy when they do.

51:13.880 --> 51:16.880
And we're not, I mean, not asking for free labor.

51:16.880 --> 51:19.880
And so just to be clear, it's just that it's,

51:19.880 --> 51:26.880
we do it to the maximum of the extent that we're able to do it with the funding that we have.

51:26.880 --> 51:30.880
But every time we have one year or more, we have to make a choice.

51:30.880 --> 51:35.880
Whether it, we put it on technical stuff, on marketing stuff, on sales stuff.

51:35.880 --> 51:38.880
It's always tough to make that decisions.

51:38.880 --> 51:40.880
It's a difficult decision.

51:40.880 --> 51:46.880
I would agree that sometimes we probably think a bit too technical.

51:46.880 --> 51:51.880
I think that's maybe, yeah, that's when we are all technical people, right?

51:51.880 --> 51:55.880
All coders, that's our, that's where we felt just into it.

51:55.880 --> 52:00.880
I would also like to combine a bit with the question over there, which asked about the distribution

52:00.880 --> 52:03.880
and all the different kind and everybody does their own thing.

52:03.880 --> 52:07.880
I mean, there was many years ago already where Ubuntu actually tried to have this.

52:07.880 --> 52:12.880
One distribution that I said is, I, okay, I picked the, I picked the X-windows system for you.

52:12.880 --> 52:14.880
I picked the desktop manager for you.

52:14.880 --> 52:19.880
And there's this one Ubuntu, which comes with this desktop manager and this apps and so on.

52:19.880 --> 52:23.880
And what happened, just a few days later, there came out Kubuntu and X Ubuntu,

52:23.880 --> 52:26.880
because everybody has, of course, their own opinion, right?

52:26.880 --> 52:30.880
What's the best tool and what's the best solution and what's really should be in there?

52:30.880 --> 52:32.880
I think that's really the challenge.

52:32.880 --> 52:37.880
That's why I think at the end, we never will get rid of about some kind of modularity,

52:37.880 --> 52:39.880
which was discussed before and some flexibility.

52:39.880 --> 52:43.880
That's also what we try in next cloud, where we come out with next cloud hub,

52:43.880 --> 52:49.880
but you have to complete solution with all the features built in more or less easy to deploy.

52:49.880 --> 52:52.880
But then we provide a modularity, as I said also before,

52:52.880 --> 52:55.880
when someone really wanted to have a really powerful wiki,

52:55.880 --> 52:57.880
then you can use the X-Wiki integration,

52:57.880 --> 52:59.880
or then they can use the open project integration.

52:59.880 --> 53:02.880
So why I completely get what you would like to have,

53:02.880 --> 53:04.880
and I sometimes would also like to have it.

53:04.880 --> 53:09.880
I think in reality, it's really difficult, as I said, Ubuntu and other stories in the past,

53:09.880 --> 53:10.880
showed us already.

53:10.880 --> 53:14.880
The first time to be shown,

53:14.880 --> 53:19.880
you had so many different questions.

53:19.880 --> 53:22.880
Let's take a long question.

53:22.880 --> 53:27.880
At the beginning, you said that developing integration was a good close,

53:27.880 --> 53:30.880
because even to your whole developing software,

53:30.880 --> 53:32.880
you're not doing exactly the same thing.

53:32.880 --> 53:36.880
But sometimes it happens that when you're developing an integration,

53:36.880 --> 53:39.880
for example, there are multiple open-source wiki projects,

53:39.880 --> 53:42.880
our project management, the open-source,

53:42.880 --> 53:47.880
do you sometimes develop integration with multiple companies or projects to fit into one?

53:47.880 --> 53:51.880
Let's say developing an integration for next cloud as a wiki,

53:51.880 --> 53:54.880
but you partnership with other projects,

53:54.880 --> 53:59.880
so that you can visualize the default.

53:59.880 --> 54:06.880
Maybe if I get the question right,

54:06.880 --> 54:10.880
what you describe is a project called Open Desk,

54:10.880 --> 54:12.880
where some colleagues are behind there.

54:12.880 --> 54:17.880
That's a project funded by the German government and for German governments,

54:17.880 --> 54:19.880
but also publicly available,

54:19.880 --> 54:21.880
and that's exactly does that.

54:21.880 --> 54:24.880
It's a combined software.

54:24.880 --> 54:28.880
Software here represented by us and other software into one solution,

54:28.880 --> 54:31.880
and tries to fit one need.

54:31.880 --> 54:35.880
That goes a bit in the direction of the last question.

54:35.880 --> 54:43.880
I think it matches very well the objective to have the German government delivered

54:43.880 --> 54:49.880
and many other situations where you need an infrastructure for a file and group there and so on.

54:50.880 --> 54:52.880
But it won't fit everybody,

54:52.880 --> 54:57.880
and the more complicated an organization is the more complicated other needs,

54:57.880 --> 55:00.880
and then you might need to exchange things,

55:00.880 --> 55:03.880
and then OpenSource has its strengths,

55:03.880 --> 55:08.880
and I think it's as a strength to have this modularity and the option to exchange things.

55:08.880 --> 55:13.880
I think that's a good ending because we're ending on diversity of strength.

55:13.880 --> 55:17.880
I think that's one of the most open source things you can say.

55:17.880 --> 55:21.880
So thank you everybody for joining, watching, listening.

55:21.880 --> 55:24.880
Full of questions can go to each of them separate,

55:24.880 --> 55:27.880
and yeah, have a good rest of the day here.

55:27.880 --> 55:29.880
Thank you.